Contemporary Fantasy

[dantheman93]

So I think this is going to come down to opinion, but I’m interested to know the sentiment on “contemporary fantasy”, specifically the world building.

I just watched a review video on Fourth Wing and one of his big gripes that he had was that it’s considered a fantasy, yet they attend a (magical) school and at said school they often have scenes in the cafeteria and are literally described using forks and metal utensils. This was his exact complaint. He was genuinely irritated and said that cafeterias shouldn’t have a place in fantasy, it just really bothered him.

And idk, buddy. That book had so many other problems . I wouldn’t have flagged a cafeteria as one of them. For me I feel like having a cafeteria setting is fine? Like where else were they going to eat? Or I don’t think you have to reinvent every single thing. What’s wrong with forks? We don’t need to rename them dinglehoppers.

He also pointed out too modern or current language. He called out the character’s incessant use of the phrase “hot mess” and I do agree that can be egregious and lean into lazy territory. Like in theory, there wouldn’t or shouldn’t be a frame of reference for her to use that term.

But forks in a cafeteria?? Seems pretty practical to me.

 

[GothAngel]

why they saying forks in a caferia weird how else do people eat not with there hands we use forks and spoons

 

[Mad Swede]

You can make similar comments about some SF stories, where the characters eat food as opposed to taking some energy pill. The thing about comments like that is, what else would the characters do differently if they weren't (to take this example) using knives, spoons and forks to eat? How would they comb or brush their hair? And so on.

Using contemporary slang is another question, in that it will (in future) make the story dated. But in a contemporary setting, how else would they speak?

 

[Romy]

cafetaria bother me in real life and i'll avoid them but doesn't make them less real

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

So I think this is going to come down to opinion, but I’m interested to know the sentiment on “contemporary fantasy”, specifically the world building.

I just watched a review video on Fourth Wing and one of his big gripes that he had was that it’s considered a fantasy, yet they attend a (magical) school and at said school they often have scenes in the cafeteria and are literally described using forks and metal utensils. This was his exact complaint. He was genuinely irritated and said that cafeterias shouldn’t have a place in fantasy, it just really bothered him.

And idk, buddy. That book had so many other problems . I wouldn’t have flagged a cafeteria as one of them. For me I feel like having a cafeteria setting is fine? Like where else were they going to eat? Or I don’t think you have to reinvent every single thing. What’s wrong with forks? We don’t need to rename them dinglehoppers.

He also pointed out too modern or current language. He called out the character’s incessant use of the phrase “hot mess” and I do agree that can be egregious and lean into lazy territory. Like in theory, there wouldn’t or shouldn’t be a frame of reference for her to use that term.

But forks in a cafeteria?? Seems pretty practical to me.

I agree. 'oh no, logical things in fantasy, what am I going to do'

In my world I wanted to have a lore reason for the 'real world' technology (Electronic ovens, vending machines, stuff like that. But the rest of the technology is far more in the vein of 'fantasy' technology.) to exist in a fantasy world.

The lore reason that there's real world technology in my fantasy setting (The Sea of Data) is mentioned in the first chapter and eventually becomes a B plot that the protagonists want to go to that location in the world. It is also mentioned in the first chapter that the Sea of Data can be used to view 'seas of data' (AKA The Internet) From other worlds, and that there's a clan of Mages who have a divine understanding of the data within it.

If a reader STILL has a gripe about "real world technology" being in an otherwise fantastical setting (You know, dragons, mages the works) I'm sorry they weren't paying attention lol At any rate, I feel like my idea for why real technology exists is better than having it exist with like, no plot relevant reason at all.

 

[dantheman93]

It was a strange thing to pick on, but it stood out to me cause I was about to write a scene in a magical school setting and have a joke about the werewolves always getting to lunch first .
But yeah, where else would they eat? I don’t think that’s a lazy setting.

Oh, I didn’t even think about the language dating it or being indicative of the current times. Wait long enough, and I guess it’ll read like fantasy language one day . I guess the real world slang sneaking in bothered me more than a practical setting because there’s so much, pop culture? That blends to make that word or phrase that that’s where I think you should take time to make (the slang at least) specific to your world.

Like saying “oh my god” is an easy one to accidentally want to use, and curse words which I feel can come off as out of place. For my current writing there’s a sorcerer magic/faith system, so saying “oh my god” wouldn’t make sense and I had to make something else similar up.

Then I had a line “sorry I hit you in the head, man.” But switched it to “Ashes, man. Sorry I hit you in the head.”
Just taking the time to ground the language a little more in your own world I think does huge heavy lifting if it’s otherwise a fantasy world…in the real world. But again, I suppose it just comes down to opinion.

I like the “sea of data” to refer to the internet! Sounds cool and whimsical but also somehow literal at the same time.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

It was a strange thing to pick on, but it stood out to me cause I was about to write a scene in a magical school setting and have a joke about the werewolves always getting to lunch first .
But yeah, where else would they eat? I don’t think that’s a lazy setting.

Oh, I didn’t even think about the language dating it or being indicative of the current times. Wait long enough, and I guess it’ll read like fantasy language one day . I guess the real world slang sneaking in bothered me more than a practical setting because there’s so much, pop culture? That blends to make that word or phrase that that’s where I think you should take time to make (the slang at least) specific to your world.

Like saying “oh my god” is an easy one to accidentally want to use, and curse words which I feel can come off as out of place. For my current writing there’s a sorcerer magic/faith system, so saying “oh my god” wouldn’t make sense and I had to make something else similar up.

Then I had a line “sorry I hit you in the head, man.” But switched it to “Ashes, man. Sorry I hit you in the head.”
Just taking the time to ground the language a little more in your own world I think does huge heavy lifting if it’s otherwise a fantasy world…in the real world. But again, I suppose it just comes down to opinion.

Right? My characters use modern language (Though they don't use modern slang, some of them swear but not the ones directed at a type of person) because the world itself is 'old enough' though I'm considering developing some cultural swears for my fantasy species. It's mostly the regular humans that use 'modern' phrases. If that makes sense.

I like the “sea of data” to refer to the internet! Sounds cool and whimsical but also somehow literal at the same time.

In the fantasy world the Sea of Data is an actual plane (It's more metaphysical than a place you can 'go' to as a mortal. But you CAN go there) but it also connects to similar sources of information, like our internet. So I like it too. In this case it is very literal. As when things reach the end of their life they break down into a physical substance called 'data' It's kind of complex but it contains all the information about that person/thing.

 

[Mad Swede]

I like the “sea of data” to refer to the internet! Sounds cool and whimsical but also somehow literal at the same time.

The idea of a "sea of data" as a reference to the internet (or similar systems or even planes of existence) isn't new. As an example, Iain M Banks used the concept and a whole series of terms for it in his 1994 novel Feersum Endjinn. There are quite a few things you can do with the concept as a writer...

The modern idea of a "data lake" as part of an IT and/or information system is bit newer, the term and the concept date to 2010.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

The idea of a "sea of data" as a reference to the internet (or similar systems or even planes of existence) isn't new. As an example, Iain M Banks used the concept and a whole series of terms for it in his 1994 novel Feersum Endjinn. There are quite a few things you can do with the concept as a writer...

I feel like my idea for it is kind of original, since it isn't just 'the internet' although it's possible to use it that way. Particularly for the Gods of the world.
Also I feel like if a concept has 'stuck around' this long and is still used fairly frequently. It's probably a fun/good idea when done well.

The modern idea of a "data lake" as part of an IT and/or information system is bit newer, the term and the concept date to 2010.

 

[dantheman93]

I feel like my idea for it is kind of original, since it isn't just 'the internet' although it's possible to use it that way. Particularly for the Gods of the world.
Also I feel like if a concept has 'stuck around' this long and is still used fairly frequently. It's probably a fun/good idea when done well.

I liked that it felt literal and whimsical at the same time.

Also I’ve seen your profile pic around many times, but I literally just realized it’s Link. I love ToTK lol.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I liked that it felt literal and whimsical at the same time.

Also I’ve seen your profile pic around many times, but I literally just realized it’s Link. I love ToTK lol.

It originally started as admitedly a 'hand wavy' excuse for the (very minor) real world tech to exist in this fictional world. Then I ironed out more details to be more unique to my story. Then the other elements came into play like the natural elements of the world breaking down into actual data that could be processed and the idea stuck.

I can accept it's a bit cliche/tropey but it fits the setting lol

 

[Alesia Matson]

So I think this is going to come down to opinion, but I’m interested to know the sentiment on “contemporary fantasy”, specifically the world building.

I just watched a review video on Fourth Wing and one of his big gripes that he had was that it’s considered a fantasy, yet they attend a (magical) school and at said school they often have scenes in the cafeteria and are literally described using forks and metal utensils. This was his exact complaint. He was genuinely irritated and said that cafeterias shouldn’t have a place in fantasy, it just really bothered him.

And idk, buddy. That book had so many other problems . I wouldn’t have flagged a cafeteria as one of them. For me I feel like having a cafeteria setting is fine? Like where else were they going to eat? Or I don’t think you have to reinvent every single thing. What’s wrong with forks? We don’t need to rename them dinglehoppers.

He also pointed out too modern or current language. He called out the character’s incessant use of the phrase “hot mess” and I do agree that can be egregious and lean into lazy territory. Like in theory, there wouldn’t or shouldn’t be a frame of reference for her to use that term.

But forks in a cafeteria?? Seems pretty practical to me.

Fantasy world building is harder to do well than most readers realize, but generally, it seems to me that that person needs to broaden his mind about what "fantasy" is in our modern world. It's not all the "classic fantasy" of The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia anymore. The genre has moved on and expanded with the times. I think that, for the most part, the differences signfify a real evolution in storytelling, with more diverse protagonists, inclusive representation (in stories as well as authorship), non-Western cultural influences and settings, explorations of social issues like racism, sexism, and colonialism, and genre blending --- Romantasy being my favorite, these days.

And yeah, for the record? If Menelon, the world my husband and I created for stories, needed a cafeteria to make a scene work? There would be one! Like someone else said in this thread, why keep reinventing the wheel? Or even new words for one? I'm a fan of fantasy languages, but jeebus --- we're wordsmiths! We use the word that fits!

As for modern English slang and catch-phrases, I note those things when I read them, but I don't think they're a cause to automatically reject the book. But then, as I said, I'm a "use the word that fits" kind of gal.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Fantasy world building is harder to do well than most readers realize, but generally, it seems to me that that person needs to broaden his mind about what "fantasy" is in our modern world. It's not all the "classic fantasy" of The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia anymore. The genre has moved on and expanded with the times. I think that, for the most part, the differences signfify a real evolution in storytelling, with more diverse protagonists, inclusive representation (in stories as well as authorship), non-Western cultural influences and settings, explorations of social issues like racism, sexism, and colonialism, and genre blending --- Romantasy being my favorite, these days.

And yeah, for the record? If Menelon, the world my husband and I created for stories, needed a cafeteria to make a scene work? There would be one! Like someone else said in this thread, why keep reinventing the wheel? Or even new words for one? I'm a fan of fantasy languages, but jeebus --- we're wordsmiths! We use the word that fits!

As for modern English slang and catch-phrases, I note those things when I read them, but I don't think they're a cause to automatically reject the book. But then, as I said, I'm a "use the word that fits" kind of gal.

My characters use modern words in my fantasy fiction because their world is 'modern' for them. Back in the day they were much more like Tolkien. But I feel like if a fantasy world exists long enough, their language would evolve over time just like ours did. This includes things like modern swears, though I plan to go back through and remove the ones that feel unneeded.

That being said, I've refrained from using modern slang unless it was something particular. (The L33T clan members uses 'normies' to describe normal/ otherwise boring people, I feel like that one makes sense even in a fantasy setting.) The L33T Clan of mages in particular use modern-ish internet lingo because spoiler, they browse the 'internet' for information. A lot of the time they have their own definition for phrases though.

 

[Ban]

The idea of a "sea of data" as a reference to the internet (or similar systems or even planes of existence) isn't new. As an example, Iain M Banks used the concept and a whole series of terms for it in his 1994 novel Feersum Endjinn. There are quite a few things you can do with the concept as a writer...

The modern idea of a "data lake" as part of an IT and/or information system is bit newer, the term and the concept date to 2010.

"Web surfing" on the other hand is old enough to feel antiquated.

 

[Mad Swede]

Fantasy world building is harder to do well than most readers realize, but generally, it seems to me that that person needs to broaden his mind about what "fantasy" is in our modern world. It's not all the "classic fantasy" of The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia anymore. The genre has moved on and expanded with the times. I think that, for the most part, the differences signfify a real evolution in storytelling, with more diverse protagonists, inclusive representation (in stories as well as authorship), non-Western cultural influences and settings, explorations of social issues like racism, sexism, and colonialism, and genre blending --- Romantasy being my favorite, these days.

The fantasy and SF genres were moving on and expanding within 15 years of the Lord of the Rings being published. Authors like Michael Moorcock, J G Ballard, Ursula K LeGuin, Norman Spinrad and Brian Aldiss were pushing the boundaries through the 1960s, challenging writing conventions and bringing social and political issues into fantasy and SF in a way which modern writers sometimes seem to struggle with.

 

[pmmg]

Is Fourth Wing a contemporary fantasy? Is it supposed to be some world of a past age?

I would think they might eat in a great hall, or a mead hall or house.