Criticizing the Published

[psychotick]

Hi,

Thanks MOK. I am writing the next Moby Dick - and will make sure to put a whale of a hot dude on the cover!!!

Now my main problem is what to call a shapeshifting whale?!

Cheers, Greg.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Caged I'm sorry but there is no answer to your question. No one really knows why one book / author flies and another doesn't. People want to think they do, but really they're guessing. Usually it's about having the right book hit the right market at the right time, which is something that is mostly beyond people's control.

What you can do is maximise your chances. That means writing the best work you can. Getting it properly edited. Having a catchy blurb and even more importantly, a catchy cover - with a shirtless guy or girl on it! Then writing more of the same. Building a following. Marketing a bit. Sticking at it.

One thing I will say. In order to sell more books I've recently decided to start using cover artists instead of doing my own. I feel like a failure for doing it, and so far with only one new cover out - The Stars Betrayed - the results have been mixed. But I'm hopeful that when The Arcanist comes out, the (hopefully reasonably hot dude on the cover) will sell it. I won't post the five megs of cover here since I'm on dial up, but you can check out the cover on my latest blog: Greg's Books

Cheers, Greg.
Cheers, Greg.

 

[Russ]

You know what's ridiculous? I have written 13 novels and have about 100 short stories. Admittedly, most of it is shit (either weak concept or first draft), but my word count has to be up there with published writers. I just wish some of it counted for something, you know? What have I got to show for all those words? Nothing.

I have a close friend whose every book now opens on the NYT bestseller list. He swears that for the vast majority of writers that the first million words or so are shit, and how you learn your craft.

I would suggest that the fact you have had the work ethic to produce that much work at a reasonably young age is a testament to your desire to become a better writer. What you have to show for it is about 13 novels and 100 short stories more than the vast majority of people, and about 12 novels and 100 short stories than most people who fancy themselves aspiring writers have.

I don't believe in chasing the market.

With that kind of commitment your decisions about what to do next should be based on your goals. If it is just about money, you can find non-fiction writing jobs or probably make some money writing formula romance or erotica. If you have certain tales you want to tell all you can do is keep writing them, keep getting better, and keep submitting them. Of course you also have the option of self-publishing with its own pros and cons.

My friend who now appears on the NYT list regularly? 8 novels, 85 rejections, and 12 years before his first contract. I think he quite his day job around published novel #7.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I hear you loud and clear, guys--start reading erotica. HA! Kidding. I've been recently thinking about using some of the short stories as sort of collections. I'd like to do something with all those words, because I'm a skilled enough editor now to whip them into shape. Novels are trickier because, well, you know. They take loads more time and planning. Five of them are pretty good...the rest? Not so much.

I've considered how best to proceed, and the thing that really makes me cringe is that once I self-publish, can I go back? I mean, I'm not striving for a best-seller, just a published novel that at least a few people give a go. I'm not trying to make any money at all, but I feel I've put in the time to act like a professional. I'm not sure what my goal should be, I thought getting writing done and good was my goal, but now i'm more confused than ever. I go through phases (perhaps a symptom of being bipolar) where I'm full of confidence, everything I write I love, and I'm feeling super high and querying with excitement. The flip side of the coin are days like these, where I wonder what the hell I'm even playing at. I tell myself it's a worthless pursuit because I obviously don't have what it takes, if no one wants to see a full manuscript. I'm losing them somewhere, and since I don't know where, I don't know what to fix. I'm a mom--we fix stuff. We take care of stuff and get it done. But this is creeping dangerously close to the border of anxiety-world for me. I might be the worst businessman on the planet, and other than word of mouth (with my last business as a costumer), I've never had to market myself. People saw my clothes and they wanted me to do work for them. Then they saw what I made for other people, and they hired me more. Books are a different animal altogether. I'm not sure how I can show off what I can do without an agent. I guess that's where I am. I don't want to fail again on my own, but I've never succeeded at anything in my life. I'm desperate to feel proud of myself, and this might simply be a case of feeling less proud as I struggle to find a path?

 

[Philip Overby]

I do believe if you feel you wouldn't be good at marketing yourself, then self-publishing might not be the right road to take. Not to say traditional publishing would be any easier because you'd still have to figure out how to promote yourself, just in different ways. To me, it's all about carving out a little island. And by little island I mean a place for me to write, experiment, and share my work with people. This island can grow or it can stay the same. It's up to me how I decide to go about doing it. For my first short story, I decided I wanted to try free ways of promotion only and hope for some word of mouth. That's worked on a smaller scale for me, but by no means is it blockbuster or even sustainable income success. So far I've made about what I'd make if I sold the short story to a semi-pro market. So I'll take that as some kind of a success having not used any money to promote it (so far.) My next step would be figuring out how to get my stories in the hands of people I think would enjoy them and developing a marketing budget. Maybe start off with 200 dollars. To me, I see self-publishing as more of a slow drip kind of approach. It's not all or nothing for me at this point.

So I do think developing a plan might help relieve some of the stress that comes with it all. Just make a traditional plan and a self-publishing plan. Read about both topics as much as you can. It's not going to hit you like a lightning bolt, I don't think. It's going to come from soaking up as much info as you can.

It's natural to be confused on what to do. But I think there's a wealth of information out there (for free even) that can help push you along if you decide to self-publish. If I decided my dream was to start a pizzeria, then I wouldn't just open it with no idea of how to run a business. Luckily, publishing is one of those things you can mess around with a bit more, but you still need to know what successful people have done to get where they've gotten. And successful can mean whatever you want it to mean.

 

[BWFoster78]

Often times the responses deal with the notion that aspiring writers tearing down a book that is wildly successful is a form of envy.

Going back to the original post for a moment...

I'm a big NFL fan. Love going to NFL fan sites where posters argue back and forth about which team is going to be better and criticize the players and coaches and GMs.

I don't think poorly at all about those fans. It's just entertainment to fill the offseason. Granted, I look askance at a few of them who truly believe that Sean Payton should ask their advice on what play to call, but, for the most part, it's all just good fun. They don't know nothing and, again for the most part, know they don't know nothing.

Similarly, it's fun to watch two NFL cornerbacks criticize each other trying to determine who is the "best." Both have earned bragging rights through long careers.

If, however, a rookie cornerback were to step up to the microphone and start criticizing either of those two veterans, I'd think, "Shut up, rook; you haven't earned it."

Maybe that's just me as far as this board and writers are concerned, but, in the wider world, I think you'd find that a lot of football fans, at least, agree with me.

From a different perspective, I've been at my job for a dozen years and in the industry for seventeen. If a guy fresh out of college came in a started telling me how I suck, I'd probably not have very favorable thoughts toward him. When I see that same type of guy in any industry, the one who doesn't know nothing but thinks he does, start telling the people with experience how much they suck, I feel the same way.

Again, maybe that's just me as far as writing forums go, but I can't help but see that guy when I see aspiring authors start talking about how much certain authors' writing sucks.

If you're saying, as Brian Scott Allen stated, "Hey, what can I learn, positive and negative, from this?" I'm all for that. If you're saying, "I didn't care for this." I get you.

I don't think, however, that it's a fantastic idea for you to say, "Hey, this bestselling author sucks."

 

[kennyc]

So, just to clarify for people like me...I've written the best book I can. I've spent a year doing nothing but editing it, strengthening the stuff I can, and I'm not a really green writer, but I'm not published. .....
...how can I maximize my odds ...

....

I'd like to be good, but I feel mostly like the thing standing in my way is the validation that comes from someone simply saying, "yep, this is good, I want to represent it."

....

But she said her friend just sold a zombie romance and the publisher is hungry for more like it. I mean... I don't even know if I'd want to write that book even if someone promised me they'd pick it up. .......

I don't know that I can answer how to maximize your odds other than to play all the possibilities, BPH (big publishing houses), Agents, Independent publishers and self-publishing.

Now if you feel you are only going to be 'vindicated' by being traditional published (as opposed to selling your book directly to readers) then focus on that and keep the self-publishing card in your back pocket if the other TP route doesn't works. I'd say set a time-frame (and it's going to be loooong!) or list of publishers/agents/etc and then follow up with self publishing.

The main thing though that I think you understand is that you have to be true to yourself-- write YOUR books. Don't chase the markets or trends. Write the best book (or story) you can and market it as best you can and move on, keep at it, success in this business is mostly a matter of persistence.

 

[kennyc]

Dear gods, it looks like fantasy is being infected by romance and erotica to produce a whole new unholy spawn. And just when I was breathing a sigh of relief that the vampire fad seemed to be waning, too...

Yes I wrote of this future many years back in my first collection of poetry:

Many Worlds Hypothesis

Romance Writers! They’re everywhere.
You’ve got to watch out for them.
They dress to the T’s with
their new green vests
and perfect lipstick.

They’re in all the worlds and
they’re dangerous — they have power.
They intend to change the world
to their way of thinking --
and they will.


Kenny A. Chaffin — 3/5/01

 

[kennyc]

You know what's ridiculous? I have written 13 novels and have about 100 short stories. Admittedly, most of it is shit (either weak concept or first draft), but my word count has to be up there with published writers. I just wish some of it counted for something, you know? What have I got to show for all those words? Nothing.

It does, provided you have learned from the experience. If you've edited, analyzed and improved then each new piece of writing will be better.

 

[kennyc]

Hi,

Thanks MOK. I am writing the next Moby Dick - and will make sure to put a whale of a hot dude on the cover!!!

Now my main problem is what to call a shapeshifting whale?!

Cheers, Greg.

'Ishmywhale'

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

'Ishmywhale'

That sounds dirty.

 

[kennyc]

that sounds dirty.

So does 'Moby Dick'

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

 

[Steerpike]

I don't mind saying an author sucks if they suck. It's useful to try to figure out why they suck and still sell, I suppose.

I like Moby Dick, so if you're writing the next Moby Dick, I'm down

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Going back to the original post for a moment...

I'm a big NFL fan. Love going to NFL fan sites where posters argue back and forth about which team is going to be better and criticize the players and coaches and GMs.

I don't think poorly at all about those fans. It's just entertainment to fill the offseason. Granted, I look askance at a few of them who truly believe that Sean Payton should ask their advice on what play to call, but, for the most part, it's all just good fun. They don't know nothing and, again for the most part, know they don't know nothing.

Similarly, it's fun to watch two NFL cornerbacks criticize each other trying to determine who is the "best." Both have earned bragging rights through long careers.

If, however, a rookie cornerback were to step up to the microphone and start criticizing either of those two veterans, I'd think, "Shut up, rook; you haven't earned it."

Maybe that's just me as far as this board and writers are concerned, but, in the wider world, I think you'd find that a lot of football fans, at least, agree with me.

From a different perspective, I've been at my job for a dozen years and in the industry for seventeen. If a guy fresh out of college came in a started telling me how I suck, I'd probably not have very favorable thoughts toward him. When I see that same type of guy in any industry, the one who doesn't know nothing but thinks he does, start telling the people with experience how much they suck, I feel the same way.

Again, maybe that's just me as far as writing forums go, but I can't help but see that guy when I see aspiring authors start talking about how much certain authors' writing sucks.

If you're saying, as Brian Scott Allen stated, "Hey, what can I learn, positive and negative, from this?" I'm all for that. If you're saying, "I didn't care for this." I get you.

I don't think, however, that it's a fantastic idea for you to say, "Hey, this bestselling author sucks."

I think that stating the suckage depends on the forum that you're discussing the work in. For example, if I was with a bunch of fellow authors within a small tight-knit group reading books to learn from their strengths and weaknesses and we were reading Twilight I think it would be safe to say the book has enough technical problems to say that it sucks. Provided that the book group analyzes the book and learns from it instead of bashing it for bashing's sake. However, I think it is more problematic when the up and coming writer decides to post a critique on their website, blog, or social media outlet. That is like the rookie mouthing off at a microphone. Whereas the book group is like the rookie watching film and working on his game.

 

[BWFoster78]

I think that stating the suckage depends on the forum that you're discussing the work in. For example, if I was with a bunch of fellow authors within a small tight-knit group reading books to learn from their strengths and weaknesses and we were reading Twilight I think it would be safe to say the book has enough technical problems to say that it sucks. Provided that the book group analyzes the book and learns from it instead of bashing it for bashing's sake. However, I think it is more problematic when the up and coming writer decides to post a critique on their website, blog, or social media outlet. That is like the rookie mouthing off at a microphone. Whereas the book group is like the rookie watching film and working on his game.

To me, the tone of the post is as important as the outlet.

I would imagine, however, that attitudes on the subject vary. All I know is that I tend to view such statements in an unfavorable light.

I think also that I would not have said the same thing two years ago. The more I learn about writing, the harder I think it is to write well. At this point in my "career," I'm hesitant to make any criticism of someone who has accomplished so much more than me.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Or his full name - IshmywhaleandI'llcryifIwantto?

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Russ]

So does 'Moby Dick'

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

I guess the fact that it was the great white sperm whale doesn't help matters...

 

[Steerpike]

Hi,

Or his full name - IshmywhaleandI'llcryifIwantto?

Cheers, Greg.

You would cry too if it happened to you.

 

[Trick]

This seems like the best place to post this. I was doing some research on Joe Abercrombie and found a forum where someone asked for works similar to his. Check out what happened to the person who dissed him. Haha!

In case it's hard to read, click here

And then the making nice.

 

[Penpilot]

Hi,

Thanks MOK. I am writing the next Moby Dick - and will make sure to put a whale of a hot dude on the cover!!!

Now my main problem is what to call a shapeshifting whale?!

Cheers, Greg.

Well if they make a movie of it, just make sure they put the DVD price tags in the right spot. Otherwise you get something like this.