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Critique Groups - your experience

Rkcapps

Sage
I hope you can help. I'm part of a critique group that's immensely helpful, and so helpful I don't wish to part ways. When your voice is beginning to show how did you handle critiques that attempted to (unintentionally) pull you back to a good structure, but one striped of your voice? Does that make sense?
 

kennyc

Inkling
Yes. I absolutely makes sense and is in fact a 'problem' with crit groups live and on line and etc. Kris Rusch wrote a piece about it that says it better than I ever could.

https://kriswrites.com/2016/02/03/business-musings-serious-writer-voice/

I'm sure there are variations as well. Besides "Serious Writer Voice"
Since I write poetry it can become even more evident when someone wants to turn your poem into their poem by changing words, style, voice.

after many years (and still a novice) I think 'Voice' may be the single most important quality in one's writing. It is what draws me (readers) in and what keeps them interested and reading. There is more of course, it's all important (plot viewpoint, narrative, action, ....) but I think it is Voice that captivates a reader and keeps them reading. Develop Yours!!
 

Rkcapps

Sage
Thanks for that! The blog post is vaguely familiar. I followed KKR for a bit, so it may be from then, but it's a timely reminder :) I think I'll be developing my voice till the day I die, lol!
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
This is very tricky to answer. Kenny, on thew one hand, is right. Critique groups trying to bring you back to serious writer voice can be a problem, and it is a very common problem. One member of my crit group struggled with this for a long time (not trying to make us have SWV, but trying to break hers after years of bad crit groups).

On the other hand, it is a writers job to present the story clearly, and sometimes a crit group will tell you when something doesn't make sense, or they don't 'get it', when it made perfect sense to you, and you feel they are just trying to change your 'voice.' I have been in this situation, and ego has to take a back seat.

Recently I wrote a short story for a course I'm taking that I thought was excellent. I sent it to my crit partner and she had some suggestions for clarity. The story didn't make sense to her. If I'm being honest, I was sort of mad. I had already done so many drafts trying to make it 'right' and I felt that she was now just being petty. I was convinced she was "jealous", and that she didn't understand my voice at all and that I was being poetic and clever and maybe she just didn't understand that type of writing.

Once the hurt to my ego healed and I came to my senses, I realized that of course, she was right, I had just worked so hard on it I didn't want to hear more criticism. But I had let my poetry and cleverness overshadow the clarity of the story, and that is not okay. Above all, the story needs to make sense.

In poetry there is more leeway for interpretation, but I don't think we are discussing poetry.

Anyway, I sat down and really tried to work out where I was going wrong, figured it out, fixed it and it was much better. It was still my voice, but clearer. It made more sense.

And this is where, I believe, when a crit partner tells you something is wrong, they are usually right, but if they tell you how to fix it, they are usually wrong. If they say "This isn't clear. I don't get it." Than that is probably true. But only YOU know how to fix it.

So one has to be careful when involved in a crit group. Yes, make sure they aren't trying to change you. If they are, maybe find a new group, because that can be damaging and toxic. But also, know when your ego is getting in the way.
 

Chessie2

Staff
Article Team
I hope you can help. I'm part of a critique group that's immensely helpful, and so helpful I don't wish to part ways. When your voice is beginning to show how did you handle critiques that attempted to (unintentionally) pull you back to a good structure, but one striped of your voice? Does that make sense?
Hey, girl. This totally makes sense. I posted about this very topic on another forum a couple years ago and received unanimous support on leaving the group. The difference was that I actually wanted to leave, and it sounds like you are fine with staying. So...here's my 2 cents...

It takes years to really understand and hear your voice. Once you take note of it, protect it fiercely. There are an infinite number of ways to tell a story, and millions if not billions of books, but only one YOU.

YOU are who makes a story what it is. YOU are who adds spice and life and entertainment and interest to a story. No one can tell a story the way you do. Now, and I'm purely speaking from personal experience, critique groups (and I've been part of several) did me more harm than good. I recall a time when I'd be frozen up not able to write after a critique. There were many times when I cried from people's critiques, stopped writing, ripped manuscripts apart when I should have kept going, and just had experiences that were very negative.

Dean Wesley Smith has a series of posts on his blog about critique groups that I advise checking out. Writers who are in those groups are trying to learn the craft, too, and aren't always very experienced. They harp on shit that doesn't matter like adverbs and cliches and taking out was/were/because/hyphens/ellipses/whatever. You cannot grow as an artist in an environment like that. The way you grow in your craft is not necessarily via other people's opinions but by practicing constantly. You have to write a lot, you have to read a lot, then write some more. We learn storytelling structure by reading books upon books, and then we practice what our creative mind absorbs by writing our own stories.

Crit groups are also made up of writers who have different tastes than your target audience and may not even be readers of your genre. For the longest time, I used to write fantasy. But my fantasy stories were always about married couples, lovers, and romance. I had no idea that what I was actually writing was a subgenre of romance called fantasy romance. My stories were ripped to fucking shreds by other fantasy writers in those groups because "it's too unbelievable that so and so would do that for her/him" or "your stories are always so dramatic" or whatever. None of those writers understood (and to be fair, I didn't either) that I was writing for a female audience who opens up books like that to experience deep emotions and transformations. I wrote about dragons and werewolves and elves but all in the context of romance, which didn't fare well for me in those groups whatsoever.

Crit groups also have writers who are more obsessed with sounding pretty than actually telling a story. They want to use fancy words to sound intelligent but their prose is fucking empty, and no one can gather a story from that. They rip apart your voice because it sounds different from what they like, and they have absolutely no intimate understanding (or respect) for you as an artist because YOU DIDN'T WRITE THE STORY THE WAY THEY WOULD WRITE THAT SAME STORY. Therefore, they come down on your prose and your story because you're using tools that are, in their baby writer minds, forbidden to use, but in actuality you are telling a story by any means necessary.

Crit groups have a lot of writers who are plain afraid of writing for the pure enjoyment of it, who are afraid of doing things the wrong way. Pardon my French but I say, fuck that. Be daring with your craft. Challenge yourself, expose your heart on paper and use every single tool you wish to tell. Agatha Christie, one of the most famous authors of all time and my personal favorite, uses ellipses and italics and hyphens and whatever. Her prose is very dynamic, expressive, and engaging. Who cares that she writes in omniscient? Who cares that sometimes her settings are meager and she just focuses on story? In order to write good books you have to be expressive, not boring, and crit groups are filled with writers who prefer boring drab narration because it's safe.

If you, OP, believe you are recognizing your voice, defend it fiercely. Yes, listen to people's opinions if you want to keep doubting yourself. Somehow you are finding this group unhelpful if you are posting here...even though you say that you don't want to leave the group. I'm definitely not suggesting the latter, but I do think that it's only a matter of time because you can only put up with that crap for so long. You have found your voice, don't let anyone tear it down. Defend your work, be a professional about it, and ignore whatever advice doesn't fit the scope of what you're doing with your craft. I detest crit groups because they have been most unhelpful. The way I have grown as a writer has been by writing daily for years, reading the reviews of my work from actual READERS and learning more about what pleases them. As an author, you are a professional but also an artist, and the way you do things are not going to be the same as others in your crit group because they are not your target audience.

We improve in our craft by writing, not by listening to other people's opinions, which are useless when they are not the readers who would pay money for your work. Just my 2 cents.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
I've heard it said that writing is one craft where amateurs are trying to teach other amateurs to be professionals. So...one has to always keep in mind that maybe they don't really know better, and that whatever criticism you receive, you still have to put through the prism of your own better judgment.

Personally, I have taken many slings and arrows over my own writing, from people I respect and know that they know what they are talking about, and people who I feel just weren't on my wavelengths, and maybe everything else in the spectrum. But damnit, I am keeping my voice. If the story is not clear, I get that, and I want it to be clear. If the story is setting a mood different from the one I was going for, I will want to adjust that as well (or maybe Ill like it more with the one it ended up with instead....). Most people seem to hate the way I use commas, I find I am fixing those a lot. But I think for me, the biggest issue I have is my own stupid brain cannot see, in particular, omitted words. It vexes me everyday. I need someone to say...hey, you missed a word here.

But if they say I need to adjust to Serious Writers Voice (to borrow a term from above), well....I thank them for their review, but its not likely to happen.

I am reminded of a poem about taking the road less travelled by. Sometimes, you got to dare to go alone.

(Yes, I know that is not really the point of the poem, but it says something poetically that sometimes needs to be said, cause sometimes taking the one less travelled by does make all the difference.)
 

Firefly

Troubadour
If you like the group and their critiquing is genuinely useful to you, then leaving is probably unecessary. You don't need to accept advice if it isn't useful to you, and you shouldn't feel compelled to make every change your group suggests.
If this is coming up repeatedly or causing problems, you can always just talk to them about it and clarify that you aren't looking for that kind of feedback. If it's a good group, they'll probably be fine with it, unless the issue is getting in the way of them reading and understanding your story.
 

Rkcapps

Sage
Thanks guys! I must admit I'm lucky I've fallen into a crit group of 2 dedicated writers. Being disabled has it's perks, I can't go out to a face-to-face crit group and unwittingly be exposed to inexperienced influences. I only fell in with these writers after interacting with them online for more than a few months (2 years for 1 of them). I gauged what they had to offer before we began. 1 has excellent grammar and knowledge of history (and writes great comedy), which is really handy if I'm on-guard to whether or not a suggesting grammar change alters my voice. The other is a multi (self published) author who has an excellent grasp on POV, show don't tell and pointing out word choices that may not fit (for example,I may have used too modern a term. My world is fantasy but I'm trying to stick to 16/17th century usage and she knows that).

You all have given me the confidence to stick to my expression. I'm hoping my crit partners grow with me and learn how to develop their own voices and hopefully this 'pulling me back' will cease. I might say something, I just need to think of a tactful, not big headed way (and I'm not big headed, my voice is a growing thing, I just don't want it silenced - I've been around long enough to lose big-headed cockiness).
 
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