Diversity Lioness misfire?

[Graylorne]

I wouldn't whitewash the Kells at all. I'm not even sure Mindfire has actually read your book himself, as opposed to just going off that other review's (presumably mis-)characterization. Not saying he isn't pointing out real stereotypes in the American context, but I'd have more confidence in criticism that didn't draw completely from a secondhand report.

The problem is not that all what Mindfire says really happens in my book, for I know it doesn't. But just as that specific blogger assumed the worst by that list of apparent problems, so can others. And if there is one thing I don't need is that the blogosphere starts whispering that I write racist books. I'd rather change the book now I can discretely do so, than being forced to do so later.

 

[Mindfire]

I'm trying to figure out whether or not I've crossed one or two of those lines with a character in my notes. Mindfire, would you be willing to engage on these topics a little more? I'm especially curious about how firmly we should try to avoid making a connection between race and any kind of shamanism.

Well sure, if you have questions I'll gladly answer them as best I can. But I don't claim to be any sort of authority on this. And of course, not all Black people have identical opinions so others may view things differently.

 

[Mindfire]

Mindfire - This is terrible. I look at this list and none of these things are even remotely known over here. It's not my personal blind spot, it goes much deeper. This may be common knowledge in the US, but not over here. How could it? The population of African descent in the Netherlands is about 3% (from Surinam/Antilles), not counting refugees directly from Africa. We have far more immigrants from Turkey/Morocco (over three times as much).

I know the White by default-idea; the lacking descriptions for Jentakans/Thali was an oversight, they aren't white either. The idea making the Garthans lightskinned (= white) renegades and dropouts was a jab at my own people: the only European whites are no-goods. I knew the term mulatto was not popular, so I didn't use that idea.

I cannot rewrite the Kell culture, it is structural to the story. I can only stop making them black. I can make them white barbarians and leave the Chorwaynie/Jentakans/Thali what they are. They're based on S.E. Asian cultures.It plays hell with the idea of diversity without Europeans as MC's.
And it's even more a pity because the Kell are the most civilized of the lot, and Maud is not only pretty, she is intelligent, resourceful and an officer-cadet. They are a lot more clever and stable than the white warlocks, who are for the most a pack of fools.

If I changed the Kells into white, will that take away all the problems??

It is dramatic, for I'm in the first week of a two-month Virtual Book Tour and I don't know how I'm going to arrange that.

Well the first thing is, DON'T PANIC. Remember, I haven't actually read your book. So I wasn't actually criticising you so much as I was trying to put the reviewer's criticisms in a more easily digestible form and make you more aware of the potential issues at play here. I can't say how deep these issues go in your book. I can only say that at a glance, taking the reviewer at their word, it doesn't look good. As such, my advice to revise your plot and worldbuilding only applies if these issues are as deep as they seem to be. If they are more venial, a lighter touch may be all that's needed. The biggest issue to me is the magical negro problem. To see just how many changes are needed to everything else I'd have to read the book firsthand. And again, DON'T PANIC. You're not American, these things aren't common knowledge in your country. So I'm not calling for your head, just trying to raise awareness.

Also, simply making the Kells white is not something I would suggest. (Though you may want to change their eye color). The answer to flawed representation is not to remove the representation, but to improve on the flaws. While making them white may be the easiest thing, I don't think it's the best. A more nuanced approach would be better I think.

 

[Mythopoet]

And people wonder why writers are hesitant to write characters of a race different from their own... Because it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, people are going to nitpick it to death.

 

[Mindfire]

The problem is not that all what Mindfire says really happens in my book, for I know it doesn't. But just as that specific blogger assumed the worst by that list of apparent problems, so can others. And if there is one thing I don't need is that the blogosphere starts whispering that I write racist books. I'd rather change the book now I can discretely do so, than being forced to do so later.

I think the best first move you can make is to try and change the first impression your book makes. Take another look at the blurb, the culture descriptions. Those are what raise the initial red flags that may cause people to view the rest of the text with a suspicious eye. The little blunders early on make the later ones seem even bigger. After you've fixed that issue, then investigate the rest of the text to make sure the stereotypes implied by the opening aren't actually in use in the work itself. I honestly think the hardest thing to root out will be that magical negro bit.

 

[Graylorne]

Thanks. No, I don't panic yet .

May I send you a copy of Lioness, that you can check it out? For no, things are not really like that in the story.
I can PM you a Smashwords code if you would have a look.

 

[Mindfire]

And people wonder why writers are hesitant to write characters of a race different from their own... Because it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, people are going to nitpick it to death.

But this isn't nitpicking. One doesn't have to look particularly close or far to see these problems. In fact, I'd say the only reason these things weren't blindingly obvious to the author is that he doesn't live in America and probably has very few, if any, Black acquaintances. If an American author, from Georgia let's say, made these same mistakes, I would be far less forgiving.

 

[Mindfire]

Thanks. No, I don't panic yet .

May I send you a copy of Lioness, that you can check it out? For no, things are not really like that in the story.
I can PM you a Smashwords code if you would have a look.

That's fine. I'll look it over when I have time and give you my opinion.

 

[Devor]

And people wonder why writers are hesitant to write characters of a race different from their own... Because it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, people are going to nitpick it to death.

I didn't see it as nitpicking. Reading the review, I saw several but not all of the same things Mindfire pointed out. I think they're reasonably valid issues.

 

[Gryphos]

And people wonder why writers are hesitant to write characters of a race different from their own... Because it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, people are going to nitpick it to death.

No matter what you do? Really? Surely if you do representation well no one will complain. If you don't want to be criticised, don't give them anything to criticise.

 

[Graylorne]

That's fine. I'll look it over when I have time and give you my opinion.

I sent the code. Thanks; for now I'll just sit back and wait.

 

[Nimue]

And people wonder why writers are hesitant to write characters of a race different from their own... Because it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, people are going to nitpick it to death.

This isn't nitpicking. Just because it isn't something you think about doesn't mean that there aren't people who have to think about this kind of thing every day because it's part of their identity. People who are sensitive to supposedly minor cues of racism because they warn them away from people who end up throwing racist abuse, verbal or physical, at them. These criticisms aren't baseless, and claiming that they are isn't going to make it true.

It is important to put thought and effort into a POC character because you don't want to end up adding bricks to the edifice of negative, dehumanizing portrayals of black people that are out there. As illustrated by Mindfire. There are some terrible but true TvTropes pages out there.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Something else that came to mind following this thread are comments along the lines of "no matter what you do you'll always offend someone, so just write and don't worry about being politically correct."

I'm absolutely not saying that that's what's happened in this specific case (my impression is that it's rather the opposite).

It really drives home how things can take unpleasant turns even with the best of intentions though. It probably does pay off to try and check out how people will perceive the concepts you're introducing in your story, regardless of whether it's about ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, or anything else that someone may be passionate about in a way you're not familiar with.

There's one thing to be provocative or offensive when you're aware about it and prepared to deal with it. It's entirely different when you accidentally step on someone's toes when trying to be open-minded and inclusive.

 

[Devor]

Well sure, if you have questions I'll gladly answer them as best I can. But I don't claim to be any sort of authority on this. And of course, not all Black people have identical opinions so others may view things differently.

Okay. Thanks for addressing all this with a level head!

The character that I'm outlining is a wizard, a black man who dabbled with tribal shamanism when he was young, but has long since switched over to the more academic magical studies. But because of his experience with the tribal magics, he's able to recognize something in his scrying that the other wizards don't, that a spirit monster (to keep it simple) is on its way to attack the white king's new baby daughter. He stops the creature in an epic magical smackdown, but the king, who has no idea what's going on, assumes that he somehow created the monster and has him arrested.

He's rescued/recruited to join the MC's spirit-monster hunting party from his prison cell.

Does that raise any red flags with you?

 

[Mythopoet]

If we're trying to rid our society of racism, emphasizing people's race is NOT the way to do it. Making lists of all the things people cannot do or say because of another person's race is only making the problem worse, not helping anything.

 

[Svrtnsse]

If we're trying to rid our society of racism, emphasizing people's race is NOT the way to do it. Making lists of all the things people cannot do or say because of another person's race is only making the problem worse, not helping anything.

Are you sure about this? I've generally thought that raising awareness of an issue is a good thing. Like, it helps me understand it and gives me a better vocabulary when dealing with it.
On the other hand, pretending that something isn't an issue - or ignoring it - when it really is, isn't going to make it go away.

 

[Mythopoet]

Are you sure about this? I've generally thought that raising awareness of an issue is a good thing. Like, it helps me understand it and gives me a better vocabulary when dealing with it.
On the other hand, pretending that something isn't an issue - or ignoring it - when it really is, isn't going to make it go away.

Awareness for the most part, no matter the issue, does jack squat.

 

[Svrtnsse]

I think that's probably a matter of personal opinion/belief/philosophy.

For example, if I'm aware of something, it means I can chose whether to do something about it or not. If I'm not aware of something, I don't have that option.

 

[Devor]

If we're trying to rid our society of racism, emphasizing people's race is NOT the way to do it. Making lists of all the things people cannot do or say because of another person's race is only making the problem worse, not helping anything.

While I'm inclined to agree with you on that, this review hints at so many of the biggest racial stereotypes. This isn't a petty, nitpicky list. This is "black guys are violent and had to be suppressed into lazy pansies by their aggressive black women.... but you'll like the MC because she has pretty blue eyes like those pretty white people!" At least, that's what the reviewer saw.

90% of my issue with these conversations is the tone, and the "it's all so easy" attitude of it. Take those away, and it's a real discussion of real issues with a real work. That's what's happening here and I think it's worth saluting.

 

[Mythopoet]

So none of the rest of you see a problem with making sure that certain people are treated differently (you can't use certain words around them, you can't talk about them in certain ways, etc.) because of the color of their skin?