Dragons: Rawr!

[AlexanderKira]

You should stop after you said I think, this is a community of writers to help each other. It's called tough love, you don't get anywhere if people never question you.

 

[Devor]

I didn't say that dragons didn't have an impact, as I recall I was stating that I hate how they have made a huge impact.

You should stop after you said I think, this is a community of writers to help each other. It's called tough love, you don't get anywhere if people never question you.

Ohh man. You got me, I totally thought you thought that dragons had the same impact on fantasy as a herd of pigs. My point was dumb and I take it all back. Thanks for the tough love, but I found it too hard to deal with. I think I'll steer clear for a while. But welcome to Mythic Scribes and good luck on your experiences with the community.

((edit)) Darnit, that sentence started with a conjugate. I should fix that, but instead I'll let it stand as a warning to other writers.

 

[AlexanderKira]

So we've resorted to sarcasm have we? I find that you too are being a little too tough, I think you're being hypocritical. I'll be honest, I don't know how to respond to this sarcasm, congratulations you won a battle that you made fun of.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

So we've resorted to sarcasm have we? I find that you too are being a little too tough, I think you're being hypocritical. I'll be honest, I don't know how to respond to this sarcasm, congratulations you won a battle that you made fun of.

You guys both need to chill out. There's no need for the negative attitude going on here. If you can't act like adults, this probably isn't the forum for you.

 

[Kevlar]

Benjamin I applaud your maturity, as it appears this thread is short on such, and I thank you for your intervention.

Addressing the actual issue of this thread, no, I do not believe dragons are always cliché. They are sometimes, but not always. It is when a writer falls into the trench dug by the trampling feet of those who came before and does not attempt to forgo that all-too-well-trodden path that dragons become tedious. Like elves they can be made interesting. Like elves they are all too often identical to those found in the other books sharing the shelf.

When an author focuses his creativity on the old conventions and instills them with a new mystery that we can enjoy them again.

 

[Devor]

You guys both need to chill out.

You're right, and I'm sorry for my last post. I can only say that I tried to be mature first and found myself being goaded into an argument. I apologize for taking the low road.

 

[Kelise]

The mods are keeping an eye on this thread and those involved. Please move on and continue the discussion as adults.

(As of yet, I haven't had to hand out infractions and I don't wish to start now.)

As for the topic at hand, Robin Hobb involves dragons in her work. In some they're almost extinct and they manage to bring them back, and in her latest series I think they're almost common - I'm not sure, as I haven't worked my way through all of her books just yet. In this, they are very intelligent and basically demand that everyone bows down to them. They also have a range of powers that the humans aren't gifted with.

Harry Potter has dragons that are pretty common. Avoided and basically outlawed, but common and seem like they'll be there for a while yet. They don't seem to be that 'super powerful, intelligent, and mystical', though they are used as wand cores, I suppose.

 

[AlexanderKira]

Robin Hobb has dragons in her story? Well she's a fantastic writer; so maybe she can actually pull it off. See, Elves can be interesting, but most of the time authors make them perfect in every way. In my story I have them as a deformation of Humans, and the Elves believe the opposite. Will I include dragons? No, I don't believe that I am at a high enough level to change a giant cliche into something interesting. All I am saying is that people have run it dry, it's a used up idea.

 

[myrddin173]

In Naomi Novik's Temeraire series dragons are a dime a dozen. They are used as an air force during Napoleon times. I think she did a very good job adapting them to serve her purposes.

As for the pigs, I would strongly disagree. The reason it works with dragons is that they are magical, or close to it. Pigs, well unless they can fly, are not. People would probably just say, "Hmmm, can we eat that?" This is just my opinion.

I would also say dragons are not so much a cliche as they are a trope. Here is the difference according to tvtropes:

Tropes are devices and conventions that a writer can reasonably rely on as being present in the audience members' minds and expectations. On the whole, tropes are not clichés. The word clichéd means "stereotyped and trite." In other words, dull and uninteresting.

As of yet dragons are still "cool"

 

[Ghost]

It's odd that dragons are so often wise, communicative, and in decline (just like those damn elves). And what is with the mysterious bonds? It comes up in the Inheritance trilogy, Pern novels, and, to some degree, ASoIaF. Why would a person share a spiritual and mental connection with a massive reptile? It's so weird. Even so, I think there's still room for dragons that are different.

So I was thinking, why not write a story where Dragons are as common as cows. They've always been there, and people expect them to always be there, then some big plot twist! It's just formulating in my head right now, whattya think?

I've seen at least one book where small dragons were very common. It wasn't memorable, so I've forgotten the name and the plot. Would your story's focus be the proliferation of dragons? Or are they more of a background detail? Without knowing the conflict or the plot twist in your story, I can't give you much of an opinion on it because making "dragons as common as cows" doesn't tell me much. Even with all books about dragons, I can't know what kind you're using from the word "dragon" alone (big or small? sapient or not? etc). It's not meaningful or interesting as is.

 

[Liu Xaun]

Last night I watched Dream Works "How to Train Your Dragon". I was amazed at their unique portrayal. From making them swarming creatures, to giving the main dragon cat-like characteristics to make it more sympathetic. It was so good!

 

[mirrorrorrim]

Yes, the biggest cliche now in the world of fantasy...Dragons. Though some writers can manage to pull it off, Martin, Rothfuss, Paolini(God knows why), but many can call it the biggest cliche in fantasy. I have a question, because I have been pondering or whether or not to add them to my story.

In almost every Dragon story I have read, not many, the story takes place AFTER the Dragons. They're always extinct, except for one of course, they always wait and choose one particular person, they're things of legend. So I was thinking, why not write a story where Dragons are as common as cows. They've always been there, and people expect them to always be there, then some big plot twist! It's just formulating in my head right now, whattya think?

This sounds like an interesting story. I think one of the things that is making dragons cliche is that they are far too common. The historical/mythical dragon is extremely rare, on the same level as a devil, an angel, or even a god. In China, dragons were so revered that only the emperor was allowed to wear, own, or display an actual dragon picture (to get around this, artists would draw dragons with extra digits on their hands, so they weren't depicting "real" dragons). One of the things that made the founder of the Ming so revered by the people was that he purportedly had the power to control the dragons, something no emperor before or after could claim. To the Chinese, there was no "fantasy" aspect to dragons–they were real creatures and omens of great (and often calamitous) events.

Historically, dragons are just as real as Christian angels, probably even moreso, since they span so many different cultures.

I think when writers have "tame" dragons, dragons that are subservient to or even partners with humans, they are moving drastically away from the historical basis of their source material, much more than any sparkling vampires do.

Pushing that trend to its absolute extreme could be very interesting.

And who knows? Maybe it'll inspire another story some day about people domesticating angels! I can see shortwing seraphs being a big hit with teenage girls!

 

[Ghost]

I think when writers have "tame" dragons, dragons that are subservient to or even partners with humans, they are moving drastically away from the historical basis of their source material, much more than any sparkling vampires do.

Aha! That's exactly what I dislike about most fantasy dragons. Characterizing them as tame creatures makes them less awesome, less fearsome. It is just another animal. Or, in the stories where dragons talk to humans, the dragon is really just another human. Knight-slaying European dragons or lordly Asian dragons are impressive. A dragon like that is powerful, fierce, and proud. It's not somebody's pony.

Even if you tame a dragon, I imagine it would be like taming any other ferocious beast. You have to remain vigilant because instinct may kick in one day, and it'll gobble you up. If it's one of those talking dragons, you'd have to make working with you worth its while. I imagine doubling to its hoard would work. I don't think I've read something where either was the case. The dragons are either more docile than horses or insanely generous (which totally explains why they're dying out ).

 

[Shadoe]

So I was thinking, why not write a story where Dragons are as common as cows. They've always been there, and people expect them to always be there, then some big plot twist! It's just formulating in my head right now, whattya think?

Dragons tend to be big, and they eat a lot. Hard to support a large dragon population.

Also, they're not interesting if there are a lot of them. Ask yourself: how interesting are cows?

 

[Steerpike]

Aha! That's exactly what I dislike about most fantasy dragons. Characterizing them as tame creatures makes them less awesome, less fearsome.

Yes, I also prefer fantasy world where dragons (if they are going to have them) are nasty, dangerous creatures that you do not want to encounter.

I don't have them in any of my fiction. I have them in my homebrew D&D world, and in that setting there are a set number of dragons, and as far as anyone knows those same dragons have always existed. If one is killed, there is simply one less dragon in the world as they do not reproduce. But it is not at all likely that humans and the like will ever kill one. So far as anyone knows, they've only died at the hands of other dragons. They're rare enough that many people don't believe they exist, but when they show up they are like a force of nature, and almost impossible to withstand. I like them

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

Dragons tend to be big, and they eat a lot. Hard to support a large dragon population.

Also, they're not interesting if there are a lot of them. Ask yourself: how interesting are cows?

People are interesting, and there's more of them than there are of cows. Also, cows are extremely interesting to the subset of the population whose livelihoods depend on them, or who have a scientific or socioeconomic interest in them.

Dragons being common megafauna does not mean they wouldn't be interesting. It's just the background of how the world works. Fantasy does not have to be realistic; so it wouldn't make sense in the real world to have that many apex predators running around, but so what? In this made-up fantasy world, that's how it is.

 

[Shadoe]

Humans are interesting to other humans. I doubt cows find them interesting. Of course, I doubt cows find anything interesting.

 

[SeverinR]

How about this as a topic:
Are humans cliche?
Should we stop writing about them? They're in almost every literary piece, I think they have been written to death.

Any creature, or any race, any species can be written about without being cliche. If you can write about a human, then it can be written about any threatened cliche.
Cliche is the problem, nothing has to be cliche if you avoid falling in the pit.
Am I wrong? Have writers not written about humans since there was a written language, but we still find interesting things to write about humans.
The writers job is to make what they write interesting and avoid cliche. Nothing known to man or mans fantasy is automatically cliche, the writer fails when they drop into cliche.

 

[Map the Dragon]

I like dragons.

Just thought I'd leave that here.

Also, read that line in the voice of the I like turtles kid. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, I apologize.

 

[Erica]

Mercedes Lackey and Andre Norton's Elfsbane books have dragons that are essentially an intelligent and civilized race that are not extinct.

Ursula K Le Guin's Earthsea books still have quite a lot of dragons. They mostly live apart from humans, but they're still there.

Anne McCaffrey's Dragonrider books also come to mind, though they're more Sci Fi than Fantasy with dragons being a human-created species.

I think the reason dragons are often portrayed as an old race that is nearly extinct is because they are amazingly powerful creatures that would take a lot of resources to support in large numbers (so they never would have been super abundant-the ultimate in k strategists in ecological terms), and once little humans arrived on the scene and populated the planet, we took all the resources for ourselves. The longer lived, slower reproducing species just lost out. In real life, large bodied species that reproduce slowly tend to be the most vulnerable to extinction. Especially if we like to make things out of their body parts or regard them as competition for resources we want. They're a nice metaphor for what we've been doing to whales, elephants, tigers, rhinos and other such creatures in our own history.

A common theme in fantasy is a changing of the times or transition between an 'old' order where magic is the thing and a 'new' order where humans (and their technology) are taking over and all the elder races are slowly losing out.

Also, having a story where dragons (or another 'elder' race) are being resurrected from near extinction is pretty cool.