Epic Goal, or Episodic Goal?

[Rosemary Tea]

Something someone posted in another discussion got me thinking, about how characters' goals drive our writing. Starting a new thread because it's really a whole other subject.

I tend to write episodes, not epics, although a certain passion project of mine has now accrued enough episodes to rival an epic. By epic, I mean there's a goal at the outset, usually explicitly stated, that the characters must reach. Maybe they're questing for a ring (The Hobbit). Maybe they're sailing across the known world seeking missing people (Voyage of the Dawn Treader). Maybe they're solving a crime (every detective novel ever written).

By episode, I mean the characters don't have a particular long term goal, at least not one that is the point of the story. They're just living their lives and things happen to them, and they react to those things happening. In the short term, that tends to mean some goal has arisen that must be reached, but it's usually not a long term goal.

It's rather like an episode of a sitcom: Character 1 does Thing, Character 2 reacts, then along comes Character 3 with a bit of news that changes the whole picture, and next thing you know, they're all having an argument, or banding together to figure out what to do about Situation that's arisen, or something. The whole thing gets resolved fairly fast, but in the process, we've got some character development and we've got a strand of the overarching plot. Eventually, all those happenings weave together to make a larger plot.

Which way do you all write? Do you find one easier than the other?

 

[MrNybble]

I tend to do both. Writing episodes that lead to epics. Reason I have multiple installments of books for certain stories. Find it much easier to write like there will be no continuation, but leave some wiggle room for possible additions.

 

[Penpilot]

The way I think of things, most stories are combination of both. There's the larger overarching goal of the book, and then, there's the individual goals of each scene, escape the ring wraiths, get to the Prancing Pony, get to Rivendell, etc. Each smaller goal is a step along the path to the larger goal, each one leading into the next. Also, each step along the way can change the overarching goal in some cases.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

The way I think of things, most stories are combination of both. There's the larger overarching goal of the book, and then, there's the individual goals of each scene, escape the ring wraiths, get to the Prancing Pony, get to Rivendell, etc. Each smaller goal is a step along the path to the larger goal, each one leading into the next. Also, each step along the way can change the overarching goal in some cases.

Sure, but not every book necessarily has an overarching goal, does it?

At least, not that the characters have in mind. I as an author may intend for my characters to end up in certain circumstances, but they don't necessarily have that goal for themselves. It's just what's going to ultimately come their way. Meanwhile, they're solving little, day to day problems, like what to do about their pet baby dragon trampling the vegetable garden again. (No, I didn't literally write a story where that happened, but I may!)

 

[Penpilot]

Sure, but not every book necessarily has an overarching goal, does it?

At least, not that the characters have in mind. I as an author may intend for my characters to end up in certain circumstances, but they don't necessarily have that goal for themselves. It's just what's going to ultimately come their way. Meanwhile, they're solving little, day to day problems, like what to do about their pet baby dragon trampling the vegetable garden again. (No, I didn't literally write a story where that happened, but I may!)

The way I see it is what you call the overarching goal--I like to call it the main goal--can shift during the course of the story and often does. I'm not sure that many characters start off with the overarching goal in their sights right away. Every character always starts off just basically living their lives. They have their everyday problems, and they have their every day goals, and those and the choices they make lead them into the story.

For example, Luke Skywalker, at the beginning of Star Wars, he has two desires/goals. He wants to get off the planet. You know he longs for adventure, and as he sees going off to the academy to become a pilot as his way to achieving that goal. He also longs for a connection with his "dead" father. Becoming pilot is a way to finding some of that connection.

Living his day to day life, he and his uncle meet up with Jawas to buy droids. This is where the inciting incident comes into play. Luke makes a faithful choice of replacing a shorted out astro mech with R2-D2, the droid with the message from a Princess and the plans to the Death Star. If he doesn't make that choice, directly or indirectly, he never enters the story.

Once this happens, the choices he makes because he's searching for adventure and a connection with his father, shifts his main goals, from going to the academy to getting to Alderaan to rescuing the princess to destroying the Death Star and defeating the empire.

On a similar note, Frodo didn't start off the story wanting to take the one ring to Mt. Doom. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was content to remain in the Shire. And circumstances forced him into decisions that ultimately led him to the edge of a volcano.

 

[skip.knox]

I think these are two different story elements. One is the story arc, whether plot or character centered. The other is scenes or maybe a chapter.

Now, if I write a scene where I don't really have the story in mind, then all I've written is a fragment. I'll do that sort of thing when I'm kicking around story ideas to see which ones will kick back.

That's all separate from goals. It's quite common for the author to know the overall story goals but early on the characters don't see this, or have different ideas about it. It's the difference between the author's view and character view.

As for how I work, it varies. I've had stories where I'm quite clear about the goals of the story and even have a pretty good idea about the character arcs. I've got one novel where I had only the vaguest of ideas and didn't really settle on the ending until I was well into the story. I wrote quite a few scenes for that one that got tossed along the way, but which did help me grope my way to the ending I actually used. Some were very nearly character auditions.

I've tried to pants my way through a story, but I wind up deep in jungle calling in the choppers. Abandoned stories, all. I've tried plotting assiduously, being clear about the scenes involved, but story is a wily snake and it always slithers away from the plan. I'm pretty much resigned to having every story be different in terms of process. It may not be the most efficient, but it does save me a ton of fretting.

 

[ThinkerX]

Hmm...bit of a 'flip side' here, at least with 'Labyrinth' and 'Empire,' my two series.

---

'Labyrinth: Journal,' first of the series, is a record of the exploits of Titus Maximus, a disgraced minor member of a major imperial family. He and assorted companions flee into a continent sized maze, seeking refuge and family talismans lost by an ancestor of his. Those are the episodic goals. However, the labyrinth is both alive and sentient, and was also impressed by Titus's ancestor. Now, the labyrinth perceives a grave threat, and decides that Titus one of several keys to counter it. Hence, Titus undergoes a transformation over the course of 'Journal.' (The Labyrinths actions are part of the overarching goal).

'Labyrinth: Seed' takes up a decade plus later with Titus's offspring Octavos, who grew up in ignorance of his fathers fate. He joins an imperial army sent to counter a barbarian horde...and along the way encounters a spawn of the Labyrinth (among other things). (The labyrinths plan in action)

----

'Empire: Country' introduces Tia Samos, whose goal (mandated by her parents) is to land an noble born husband, thus bumping her family from 'upper middle class' to the 'aristocracy.' That goal remains constant for the next book, and (sort of) the one after - then other issues take over. Her nominal goal in 'Country' is to evaluate yet another broke aristocrat - but other things turn up.

Sir Peter Cortez, Tia's bodyguard, was born out of wedlock (meaning he's not truly a noble), and went to war expecting to get killed. Instead, he survived, and after years of a mercenary existence, is trying to figure out 'what's next.' In 'Country,' that 'What's Next,' is to get his half brother (Tia's suitor) to appoint him as Sheriff, a plan that is severely flawed by his own ignorance. In the next few books, one of his goals is to become a Roadwarden Captain, or official in charge of policing/maintaining a given stretch of a rural imperial highway. (One of his other goals, maintained throughout the series, is a desire to protect Tia at any cost)

Oafish Kyle of Bestia, Legion veteran and petty magician is Tia's carriage driver. His encounters during the war left him broken, suffering from what we'd call 'post traumatic shock.' He's back in the familiar reaches of the Empire, but finds himself a stranger in a strange land. His overarching goal is to...fit in. He turns from alcohol to self help groups, and resumes his truncated education...but things keep happening.

Then there are the bad guys, a pair of Lovecraftian Demons masquerading as humans. They have an overarching goal that extends across six of the seven books in this series, revealed episode by episode (book by book). Thing is, Tia and her companions keep landing in the midst of said episodes, with unexpected consequences for everybody.

 

[FifthView]

I wonder whether we might make a distinction between goal and motivation, on the one hand, and between personal character goal and "story goal" if such a thing exists.

Does such a thing exist? Stories can't have goals, in my book. Only characters can have goals; and, those goals are always personal. Even if the consequences of achieving or failing to achieve a goal are epic in nature, the goal still needs to be a personal goal for the character.

In the Doctor Strange movie, Stephen Strange begins with a fairly on-going, personal motivation. He wants to maintain his current life. This means he will take on only those cases (surgeries) that allow him to shine. They must be interesting cases—he is motivated in this way as well—and they must be cases that not every Dr. Tom, Dr. Dick, and Dr. Harry could solve. He has a certain cred, or fame, to maintain.

Then, he has a horrible car accident that takes away his ability to perform those surgeries. A potentially life-changing event—except, he is still motivated by his desire to maintain the life he has been living. It's just that now he has to repair the damage he sustained in the car accident before he can continue down that track. This desire to recover the old status quo is the primary motivation for him. After trying other surgeries and surgeons, his quest to recover leads him to magic. And still, even as he begins to learn magic, he has the primary goal of recovery in mind.

At some point during his studies, a transition happens. Perhaps it's what I already mentioned. He is motivated by interesting cases. He'd not known magic existed, and now he finds it fascinating as he learns more and more magic very quickly. His desire to excel at magic mirrors his previous desire to excel at neurosurgery. I believe he begins to see himself no longer as a "surgeon supreme," heh, but perhaps as a potential "sorcerer supreme." He takes every route, including stealing books he shouldn't be studying, studying during sleep via an astral projection, trying out the time stone, etc., because these are the route to that "new track" as it were, even if it's kinda like the old track but with magic instead of surgery.

What's his goal, at that point? I'm not sure it's obvious. Maybe he has a goal of becoming the best sorcerer ever...but I just have to guess. I do not believe he's still thinking of repairing his hands and returning to surgery, however. But given his personality and character, I have an easier time of guessing his motivation. In other words, I don't know the end-point he has in mind, but I do know the general motivating tendencies of Stephen Strange at this point. He desires excellence.

I think perhaps excellence isn't something that can ever be a goal for him, not quite, because he can always improve and he can always continue to test himself on that score, so it's never a settled question. I bring this up because the attack by the main villain turns Dr. Strange's attention. He had settled onto a new track by this point and, I think, would have continued to improve his sorcery. But then comes an antagonist who comes close to kicking his butt....so is Dr. Strange still excellent, at that point? I mean, from his own POV? What's his motivation? I mean, why does he decide to stop Kaecilius?

I think it's because Kaecilius represents a challenge. Similar to the way an injury might be a good challenge for the surgeon trying to repair the damage, Kaecilius is a magical challenge. Or to put it another way: Once, Stephen Strange may have been motivated by personal excellence as a surgeon, and one of the consequences was that actual people were truly helped by him. That's part of the test, for Stephen Strange. Now that he's a sorcerer, overcoming Kaecilius is another test, and defeating him will also have the consequence of helping out actual people—indeed, saving the world—and this is a test Stephen Strange can't pass up. This is right up his alley.

Of course, at some point Dr. Strange becomes a hero. So....what's a hero's goal? What's a hero's motivation? It's funny that later, in Infinity War, Dr. Strange tells Tony Stark that he, Dr. Strange, is "Protecting your reality, douchebag." This is the role he sees for himself. That is his measure of personal excellence. Does this mean he's not a hero but merely an ego-driven super sorcerer? I don't think so. Protecting others is intensely personal for him precisely because his ego demands it of him. This isn't entirely different than Peter Parker's choice to make sure no one is ever again hurt by his inaction, i.e., like his Uncle Ben was. It's personal for Peter Parker, and it's personal for Stephen Strange. (However, I'd say Peter is much more empathetic than Stephen, heh. I mean, I could see Peter crying at a sad movie, but I can't see Stephen doing that hah.)

The TLDR; point of the above would be that a hero can have intensely personal motivations, even quite personal goals, and still play major roles in epic events. To the degree that epic events can turn on an individual's actions or a small group of individuals' actions, then the personal motivations of those characters will indeed have epic consequences, pretty much by definition.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Something someone posted in another discussion got me thinking, about how characters' goals drive our writing. Starting a new thread because it's really a whole other subject.

I tend to write episodes, not epics, although a certain passion project of mine has now accrued enough episodes to rival an epic. By epic, I mean there's a goal at the outset, usually explicitly stated, that the characters must reach. Maybe they're questing for a ring (The Hobbit). Maybe they're sailing across the known world seeking missing people (Voyage of the Dawn Treader). Maybe they're solving a crime (every detective novel ever written).

By episode, I mean the characters don't have a particular long term goal, at least not one that is the point of the story. They're just living their lives and things happen to them, and they react to those things happening. In the short term, that tends to mean some goal has arisen that must be reached, but it's usually not a long term goal.

It's rather like an episode of a sitcom: Character 1 does Thing, Character 2 reacts, then along comes Character 3 with a bit of news that changes the whole picture, and next thing you know, they're all having an argument, or banding together to figure out what to do about Situation that's arisen, or something. The whole thing gets resolved fairly fast, but in the process, we've got some character development and we've got a strand of the overarching plot. Eventually, all those happenings weave together to make a larger plot.

Which way do you all write? Do you find one easier than the other?

I’m majoring in history rn and that’s definitely affected my approach to this to a great degree. I really hate the type of fantasy that structures it’s plot around large scale events in the world and chooses as its protagonists characters that are major “drivers” or at the forefront of those events.

the fact is, events with a wide ranging, whole-world-scale impact don’t have single individuals driving them. the way history is experienced is just...people live their lives and try to make it in the world.

And the people that are highlighted, the “Great Men” of history, they are not always very interesting protagonists, nor do their personal lives and the events they affect have much in common thematically as stories. The lives of royals and generals are very often just boring as shit to read about imo.

So I would say my stories are driven by characters’ personal relationships and goals and traumas to a great extent, and their plots are often out of sync with the general tempo of world events. It’s more about how my characters are navigating the events than the events themselves.