Evolution of the use of said...

[pmmg]

Howdy all...

So thought I would post this up.

When I was a young writer, I used to add dialog tags like they were golden tickets into character thoughts and emotions. Why I might have written such darling prose as:

"No," bob whimpered.
"But please," Sally cajoled.
"Oh, Okay," Bob relented.
"Great," Sally squealled.

Each one conveying emotion and getting right to what the character was feeling as they spoke it. Only problem was, It was too much...it rang badly, its came across as...melodramatic.

A more mature me came along, found the discipline to cut it to just said.

"No," Bob said.
"But please," Sally said.
"Oh, Okay," Bob said.
"Great," Sally said.

That worked great. I could walk around all snooty that I had learned my first real mature lesson. I could retort--just use said, to all the newbie and neophytes, and hover above them like I knew better and they might to well just to touch hem of my garment.

But...you know, when you are writing a much long piece of prose, that type of said starts to wear thin. I know Bob said it, he's the only other one speaking. Must I be reminded at every utterance this dude makes.

And thus I discovered I could break this up even more.

"No," Bob said.
"But please," Sally said.
"Oh, Okay," he said.
"Great," she said.

There, I shuffled in some pronouns and now Bob said does not start ring so badly. Now he is a He and he can stand in whenever I need. Bye bye monotony...

But then...There is a economy of words to think of...maybe I can say more with less...

"No," Bob said.
"But please," Sally said.
"Oh, Okay."
"Great."

There...no dialog tags...I showed the two speaking, not enough has happened to become confused. I can use no dialog tag what-so-ever...

But then my new editor shows up, and points out that what is missing is the opportunity to show and not tell. And as he is going through my prose, he is knocking all my dialog tags down like ducks at a shooting gallery. I can even hear he Pling sound.

"No." Bob leaned back in his chair and laced his fingers behind his head.
"But please." Sally stood before him with an armful of paperwork to do, her eyes big as saucers.
"Oh, Okay." Bob reached over his desk and held out his hand, waiting for her to unload some of the pile on him.
"Great." Sally smiled, and she placed the whole stack into his hand.

Where does it end? When is a said...just a good word to use?

"Sometimes, I don't know," Goldie said.

 

[ThinkerX]

"No." Bob leaned back in his chair and laced his fingers behind his head.
"But please." Sally stood before him with an armful of paperwork to do, her eyes big as saucers.
"Oh, Okay." Bob reached over his desk and held out his hand, waiting for her to unload some of the pile on him.
"Great." Sally smiled, and she placed the whole stack into his hand.

This is my preference when possible.

'Said' is my preferred dialogue tag, though I put it before the name.

"I wonder about that," said Bob.

Sometimes, I do use situation-dependent dialogue tags.

"This way!" shouted Fred as he pointed at a door, his voice barely audible over the cacaphony around them.

 

[Devor]

There’s no rule that can be a substitute good judgement.

I prefer to mix dialogue into the narrative instead of having short sections of dialogue, and to use the word for said that naturally describes how they’re talking (which can be said or shouts or replies or asks or whatever, without forcing it). But you know, everything is situation and style dependent.

 

[Karlin]

I tend to avoid dialog tags as much as possible. I'm not sure why. Sometimes an editor or early reader will point to places where it isn't clear who is speaking, or one can get lost in the back and forth of the back and forth of a dialogue.

I wrote this last night:

Izna stirred. Val cut.​

“Izna.”​

“I’m here.”​

“What is Romlal really like?”​

“He’s the way he is. You just need to accept him.”​

“That I know. It’s just that, well, he’s brilliant. Knows so much. Even Chinese.”​

“Only two dialects.”​

“Two more than most of us know. He’s interesting, even fascinating, but…”​

“But awkward.”​

“Awkward. Yes.”​

Izna looked up.​

“Are you dating him or something?”​

“I don’t know. We ate together a couple of times, but he’s… awkward. Something is wrong.”​

 

[Prince of Spires]

It's personal preference, and variety is the spice of life.

I personally feel that, especially in longer sections of dialogue, having a character beat behind each bit of dialogue is too much. It slows the pace and takes up more words. Sometimes, you just want a quick he said / she said. Always having your characters lean back and grab something or look at someone or whatever is too much for me.

At the same time I agree with your editor that by only using said, you're missing opportunities to show character and deepen the scene.

It's also about word economy. If you're writing a bit of dialogue followed by an action, like "bla bla" Bob said. He leaned back in his chair, then you can always drop the Bob said. Fewer words, exact same meaning, better pacing. That's always a win. However, if you find yourself dropping actions that don't actually add anything, then you're just inflating your wordcount and slowing the story for no purpose.

As for how often it's needed, again that's personal preference and very situational. For me, Karlin's example is too much for instance. Also, if you have more than 2 people in a conversation, then you almost always want to give some hints as to who is talking.

 

[Penpilot]

I learned a long time ago to never take anything to the extreme with writing. It's never a hard yes or no. For me, I use all of the above, when I think it's appropriate.

One thing I always try to do is have motion in my scenes. I always want my characters to be doing something when they're talking to one another. It doesn't have to be something action packed. It can be something simple as making a meal or walking to or through an area.

It gives them opportunity to interact with the environment and show their emotions among other things through those interactions. But at the same time, I don't need to draw attention to the character interacting with something each and every time they speak. That's an issue in itself, so sometimes a simple 'said' tag works, or no tag at all if the rhythm of the conversation makes it obvious who's speaking.

 

[SamazonE]

It is thought and said. I feel this way about said, and thought. It seems like there is an issue in the gap in the market for grammar books.

For instance, Bob said, becomes Bob thought, pretty quickly.

”What is done, is done,” Bob said sadly.

What is done, is done, Sally thought, thoroughly.

When you use these words in conjunction, you might add flavour to your prose. To think that such innocent beings have been writing the textbooks.

 

[pmmg]

Why say he was sad when you can show it instead?

"What is done, is done," Bob said, his shoulders slumped, his head lowered.


And why have said?
"What is done, is done," Bob's shoulders slumped, his head lowered.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Why say he was sad when you can show it instead?

Fewer words...

Or maybe you already had Bob slump his shoulders 2 lines earlier and you want to emphasize the tone once more.

It's a simple example of course, which you'd probably rarely use in a book. And for this specific one, killing the adverb is probably a good idea. But if you have a character mumble something, then you can convey a lot without adding more words. After all,

"He started it!" Bob shouted
is very different from
"He started it," Bob mumbled

For the first one I could go for "He started it!" Bob waved his arms around, his face growing red. to show the anger. Still, that's more words that Bob shouted, and sometimes you want word economy because you don't want to break the pace of a scene.

 

[skip.knox]

>There’s no rule that can be a substitute good judgement.

Yup. I totally agree. Except...

Writers, even experienced ones but especially new ones, are notoriously unsure of their own good judgment. This gets worse when one has a manuscript come back from an editor with enough changes on this point to undermine whatever confidence one had in one's own good judgment.

In the absence of good judgment, I say go for what feels right. Now, my judgment might be wrong; indeed, it might be way wrong. pmmg gave examples to illustrate this. What seems right at one stage of one's writing can feel horribly wrong at some later stage. Time travel aside, all we can work with is where we are now.

Give it your best shot, pmmg. If it meets your own good judgment (pace Devor), and it's been through a beta reader or five, then read your editor's feedback as critically as you read your own writing. You might find some changes that make sense, others that certainly don't, and a whole pile here where you just sort of shrug. Go with what feels right, then do what we all do: publish, and hold your breath.