Opinion on 'said'

[Christopher Wright]

"Don't go there--it's all quicksand," Tom said firmly.

 

[Zero Angel]

Yeah, I think the rule should be default to 'said,' and if you have to use something else use either ejaculated, expostulated, or approbated.

Nice ones! ...he ejaculatorily approbated.

By the way, Webster's says "ejaculatorily" is "virtually never used". I'll chalk that up as a WIN!

Do yins wanna' expostulate with me?

(sorry, sometimes these urges overcome me and I must give in to the silliness).

But seriously, I like most speech tags.

 

[Ireth]

Yeah, I think the rule should be default to 'said,' and if you have to use something else use either ejaculated, expostulated, or approbated.

I've only ever seen one writer use "ejaculated" as a dialogue tag, and that was JK Rowling in one of the later HP books. It was hilarious, and probably unintentionally so.

"Snape!" ejaculated Slughorn.

...sounds kinda bad if you take it out of context... XD

 

[Saigonnus]

But what about this example? “By the Gods! What do we do!” Larry said.

"By the Gods! What do we do?" Larry exclaimed, fear painted on his face upon seeing the tail of the dragon disappearing around the corner, not in the mood for a bargain.

 

[dangit]

I don't think it matters over much but I think that Christopher is right about said being invisible.

 

[J. S. Elliot]

I dunno. Personally, "said" seems a bit ... flat, when there are more descriptive words that could also eliminate the need for further description and thus word-count padding. "Hissed" conveys quite a bit of body language and tone, in one word, compared to the fluff that "said" and the same thing would need. I personally prefer to mix things up (while not ignoring "said"), but that's just me.

 

[Steerpike]

"By the Gods! What do we do?" Larry exclaimed, fear painted on his face upon seeing the tail of the dragon disappearing around the corner, not in the mood for a bargain.

"By The Gods! What do we do?" Fear painted Larry's face upon seeing the tail of the dragon disappearing around the corner, not in the mood for a bargain.

 

[Graylorne]

"By The Gods! What do we do?" Fear painted Larry's face upon seeing the pointed tail disappearing around the corner. The dragon was not in the mood for a bargain.


Sorry, couldn't resist, but tails have no moods.

 

[BWFoster78]

"By The Gods! What do we do?" Fear painted Larry's face upon seeing the pointed tail disappearing around the corner. The dragon was not in the mood for a bargain.


Sorry, couldn't resist, but tails have no moods.

Actually, since this is fantasy and we have no other context, it could be assumed that the tail is a separate sentient entity that does indeed have its own moods.

 

[Steerpike]

"By The Gods! What do we do?" Fear painted Larry's face upon seeing the pointed tail disappearing around the corner. The dragon was not in the mood for a bargain.


Sorry, couldn't resist, but tails have no moods.

Yes, I thought about changing it, but I wanted to retain as much of the original construction as possible, focusing on the dialogue tag issue.

 

[Graylorne]

Actually, since this is fantasy and we have no other context, it could be assumed that the tail is a separate sentient entity that does indeed have its own moods.

I hate tail bites dragon stories.

 

[Ankari]

Yes, I thought about changing it, but I wanted to retain as much of the original construction as possible, focusing on the dialogue tag issue.

Actually, why can't a POV character project his feelings on his surroundings? If Larry feels the dragon "is in no mood to bargain" why can't that be written exactly that way. Isn't this the case of filtering a scene through the character's senses AND emotions? Isn't this a technique that pulls the reader closer to the POV?

 

[Steerpike]

Actually, why can't a POV character project his feelings on his surroundings? If Larry feels the dragon "is in no mood to bargain" why can't that be written exactly that way. Isn't this the case of filtering a scene through the character's senses AND emotions? Isn't this a technique that pulls the reader closer to the POV?

It can, no doubt. I think the point he was making was that the tail rather than the dragon was the subject.

 

[BWFoster78]

Ankari,

I think you may have misunderstood the conversation.

Steerpike appears to have made the first correction to remove the speech tag entirely and replace it with a beat. Subsequently, Graylorne corrected a misplaced modifier or, perhaps, punctuation problem (I can't tell exactly what the original author's intent was).

I didn't get that anyone made any comments on filtering.

 

[Anders Ämting]

This is generally considered to be a bad idea. Most things I've read tell you to keep the order of the tag consistent.

Indeed? Can you actually tell me why, though?

I mean, I'll gladly listen to any advice but it's not like I'm going to stop doing something just because some people at some point said you shouldn't.

Stick with said unless it's impossible to do otherwise and for the love of all that's holy don't use adverbs.

Eh. I don't see what's so bad about adverbs. They serve a purpose in language just like all other words. I mean, you don't want to overuse them, but then you don't want to overuse anything. I don't get why adverbs in particular has become this kind of unbearable stigma with so many writers.

 

[Flemming Hansen]

"Said" is generally considered an "invisible word," meaning that when readers see "said" on the page they slide over it without so much as thinking about it. Use of other words in place of said do stick out, so the conventional advice is to use them sparingly...

I agree, and I try to make my writing disappear, unless it's something I want to bring focus on. Less is more in most cases.

I don't know about "cried" for your word choice, but I generally stick to the advice that advice is boring.

The "conventional" rules are more guidelines than anything. Style trumps every rule pretty much. Go your own way.

Hehe true

Or to sum it all up:

“Of course the best way to tag dialog is with ‘said,’” said Mr. Said.

“But it doesn’t tell you anything!” yelled the Shouter. “There are more exciting tags than that!”

Mr. Said said “Isn’t the dialog itself supposed to do that? Besides, ‘said’ never tries to upstage anything, when the other tags are a lot easier to overuse. After all, the whole shape of dialog paragraphs draws the eye to how many times overdone tags are in there.”...

LOL, a great way to sum it all up !

Stick with said unless it's impossible to do otherwise and for the love of all that's holy don't use adverbs.

I sense someone's been reading "On Writing" too. I'm currently in the midst of mass-murdering adverbs in my draft.

Nice ones! ...he ejaculatorily approbated.

By the way, Webster's says "ejaculatorily" is "virtually never used". I'll chalk that up as a WIN!
Do yins wanna' expostulate with me?
But seriously, I like most speech tags.

Only that ejaculate reminds me of some really nasty adult movies I wish I've never seen. Oh youth, why must thou be so shameful. Sorry, I'm rambling - I'm just a visual thinker.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Indeed? Can you actually tell me why, though?

I mean, I'll gladly listen to any advice but it's not like I'm going to stop doing something just because some people at some point said you shouldn't.

Eh. I don't see what's so bad about adverbs. They serve a purpose in language just like all other words. I mean, you don't want to overuse them, but then you don't want to overuse anything. I don't get why adverbs in particular has become this kind of unbearable stigma with so many writers.

Because they are weak modifiers. There are usually stronger words that can be used. Also, adverbs tend to involve more telling in places where showing may be more appropriate. (Yes, yes. I know... Telling vs Showing).

It's not that you can't use adverbs. There are plenty of really good authors who use adverbs (Gaiman for one). It's just that they should be used sparingly and when other, stronger words will not have the same desired effect. Choice vs. habit...

Just my opinion... Your writing... Your style.

 

[BWFoster78]

Indeed? Can you actually tell me why, though?

I mean, I'll gladly listen to any advice but it's not like I'm going to stop doing something just because some people at some point said you shouldn't.

I wish I could remember the source because it explained the concept better. My quite spotty recollection is that:

1. You want speech tags to be invisible.
2. Regardless of whether you use "Joe said" or "said Joe," the reader will get used to the construct.
3. Alternating draws attention to the construct.

On a personal note, I read Danny and the Dinosaur to my two year old last night. The author switched from "the dinosaur said" to "said the dinosaur" a few times, and I found it jarring. However, I don't know if I would have noticed if I hadn't read that the practice is "wrong."

EDIT: Meant to make clear - I don't think this rule is necessarily a big deal. The vast, vast majority of readers are not going to notice.

 

[BWFoster78]

Because they are weak modifiers. There are usually stronger words that can be used. Also, adverbs tend to involve more telling in places where showing may be more appropriate. (Yes, yes. I know... Telling vs Showing).

It's not that you can't use adverbs. There are plenty of really good authors who use adverbs (Gaiman for one). It's just that they should be used sparingly and when other, stronger words will not have the same desired effect. Choice vs. habit...

Just my opinion... Your writing... Your style.

I've noticed that they usually actually do absolutely nothing to change the meaning of your sentence.

I've noticed they do nothing to change the meaning of your sentence.

Any word with such a characteristic is a candidate for deletion.

 

[Zero Angel]

I wish I could remember the source because it explained the concept better. My quite spotty recollection is that:

1. You want speech tags to be invisible.
2. Regardless of whether you use "Joe said" or "said Joe," the reader will get used to the construct.
3. Alternating draws attention to the construct.

On a personal note, I read Danny and the Dinosaur to my two year old last night. The author switched from "the dinosaur said" to "said the dinosaur" a few times, and I found it jarring. However, I don't know if I would have noticed if I hadn't read that the practice is "wrong."

EDIT: Meant to make clear - I don't think this rule is necessarily a big deal. The vast, vast majority of readers are not going to notice.

That's about right. So if you want them to be noticed, then by all means be aware of what you're using. If you want them to be not noticed on the other hand, then be aware of that as well.

Edit: To be clear, only agreeing with #3. I think it is obvious from my sentence that I think #1 is a personal choice. As far as #2, I guess I agree with that as well, depending on the reader.

I've noticed that they usually actually do absolutely nothing to change the meaning of your sentence.

I've noticed they do nothing to change the meaning of your sentence.

Any word with such a characteristic is a candidate for deletion.

Ehh, I really strongly disagree with your seemingly casual assessment

Just teasing. Yeah, they are candidates for deletion, but sometimes you want them. Gotta' analyze what you're trying to achieve and if your word choice helps.