"He said" ..."She said" over and over

[Russ]

No wonder it didn't sell very well. That said, I've been wondering whether liberal use of exclamation marks might be fine for children's books or YA novels. I've been told that YA books in particular allow for, some would even say require, a more upfront telling (as opposed to only showing) of what's going on inside a character.

For children's books I have no idea.

What I have been told for YA writing is not to underestimate your audience and write down to them. That apparently is a mistake. I understand that the only difference for YA books is usually subject matter, and how adult language/issues are presented and even that second one is shrinking.

 

[Chessie]

I've never read Harry Potter so forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression that capitalizing words was a major no-no in all published works. So I've learned something new: different age categories permit certain things.

As Nimue said, I see enough italicized thoughts in adult fantasy to have thought it's just the way things are done. I've done this in a couple of my stories but have steered away from it in recent times because I don't much care for that style anyway. Does it pull me out of the story when I read it? Not really. I see it as a stylistic preference.

 

[Steerpike]

I've never read Harry Potter so forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression that capitalizing words was a major no-no in all published works. So I've learned something new: different age categories permit certain things.

I don't even know that it's limited to age groups. I'm sure I've seen that in adult novels as well, and I've also seen italicized words used to describe a sound like woosh! directly to a reader. In adult novels.

I think the idea that anything is a "no-no" in ALL published works is typically shown to be false. Someone inevitably comes up with an example of it.

 

[FifthView]

What I have been told for YA writing is not to underestimate your audience and write down to them. That apparently is a mistake. I understand that the only difference for YA books is usually subject matter, and how adult language/issues are presented and even that second one is shrinking.

I don't think that use of italics for internal dialogue is a matter of "writing down" to an audience. Liberal use of exclamation marks might fit that assessment however. Although I'm wondering if Nimue's observation about differences between casual/comedic vs serious novels also comes into play when deciding how to use exclamation marks.

The advice I have received about telling vs showing when it comes to revealing how characters are feeling, in YA novels, was more about using direct statements like, "She felt horrible," worrying less about only or mostly showing—not about what we've been discussing in this thread. But it occurred to me that the problematic uses of those things mentioned in this thread are a lot like the more general argument of telling vs. showing. For instance, the blunt exclamation mark at the end of a normal line of dialogue.

 

[Russ]

So, I sort of feel that shouldn't we, as a community of writers, be encouraging each other to be creative? To find our own voices? Obviously no body told GRRM that he wasn't supposed to use italics or thought tags or exclamation points.

He wrote a damn good story though, even with all those things.

Couple of points.

With respect to GRRM (and I enjoy and respect his work) he is a rather exceptional writer, with a long history, relationships with editors, an audience etc. IIRC he was first nominated for the Hugo in the 70s. His ability to publish and get access to the public is very different from everyone on this site. Based on his history and platform he really can get away with lots of things that the average writer, and certainly unpublished writer cannot. The considerations he has when writing his books is very different than the considerations we have when we write ours. If we ever get together for a few beers I can give you long lists of things writers like GRRM can, and do, do that don't seem to impair them at all, that would get a novice or even mid list writer's manuscript thrown in the trash bin. For people who want to be successfully published the truth is that the "rules" are different for branded and non-branded writers.

As a community of writers we should be encouraging creativity and encouraging people to write. But one also has to be realistic, and perhaps more importantly responsive. You also have to keep their goals in mind. When someone says "How should I handle X", you can tell them to be creative and do as they please, or you can give them some advise, and they can take it or leave it.

 

[Russ]

I don't think that use of italics for internal dialogue is a matter of "writing down" to an audience. Liberal use of exclamation marks might fit that assessment however. Although I'm wondering if Nimue's observation about differences between casual/comedic vs serious novels also comes into play when deciding how to use exclamation marks.

The advice I have received about telling vs showing when it comes to revealing how characters are feeling was more about using direct statements like, "She felt horrible," worrying less about only or mostly showing—not about what we've been discussing in this thread. But it occurred to me that the problematic uses of those things mentioned in this thread are a lot like the more general argument of telling vs. showing. For instance, the blunt exclamation mark at the end of a normal line of dialogue.

I apologize if I have been unclear. I have been trying to avoid the italics issue because I don't feel well versed enough in it to comment. I was trying to stick to dialogue tags and exclamation points and if I wandered into italics that was by mistake.

 

[Steerpike]

What I see in threads like these, often, are assertions that extend beyond the evidence used to bolster them.

When I mentioned above, for example, that most agents/editors I've heard talk on the subject of italics for a character's thoughts are against it. That's absolutely true. And I've read materials by editors and agents who say not to do it. But I have no idea what percentage of the editors/agents out there feel this way. My experience in speaking with, and reading comments by, editor and agents doesn't constitute a statistically-significant sampling of the total population of agents and editors.

I'm just relating my experience. What I can say with certainty is the idea that ALL editors are against italics are thought must be wrong, because there are a lot of books that use them.

It seems to me the same goes for the other topics addressed in this thread. Many of us have experience talking to authors, agents, and editors, and that shouldn't be discounted. But I don't think anyone here can say that most or all editors/agents want one thing versus another. At least, not based on the anecdotal evidence I've seen presented. We can only talk about our experience, and we can talk about the fact (as Heliotrope has highlighted) that there are very popular, published works that eschew these "rules." So, clearly you can find a readership and sell a lot of books even while doing these things some people are saying you can't do.

Because nobody here, to my knowledge, has any way to know what the majority of editors or agents think, or even any way to quantify how much more or less likely rule X is to make your book sell versus not sell, appeals along those lines don't end up persuading people.

It's much more interesting, in my view, to talk about the mechanics of what is going on, as T. Allen Smith and others did above. Talking about what you find more effective and why, and presenting substantive writing-based reasoning to adopt one path over the other (if in fact one needs to be adopted over the other). That makes for good discussion in a writing forum.

 

[FifthView]

I apologize if I have been unclear. I have been trying to avoid the italics issue because I don't feel well versed enough in it to comment. I was trying to stick to dialogue tags and exclamation points and if I wandered into italics that was by mistake.

Not a problem. You were responding to a paragraph I'd written in reference to a list of things, so I mentally folded them together.

 

[Steerpike]

If we ever get together for a few beers I can give you long lists of things writers like GRRM can, and do, do that don't seem to impair them at all, that would get a novice or even mid list writer's manuscript thrown in the trash bin.

You could, but then I'd ask you to explain House of Leaves​.

 

[Russ]

You could, but then I'd ask you to explain House of Leaves​.

Thanks...now I have to buy it and read it...

 

[Steerpike]

Thanks...now I have to buy it and read it...

First novel. Unknown author. Breaks just about every rule. The guy uses font colors (rarely) and lots of weird text tricks (boxes with backwards writing, etc). Breaks the fourth wall. There are two stories going on - one in the story proper, and one in the voluminous footnotes. And that's just getting started.

And not only did he sell it as a first-time author, the book did really well (and it's also a really cool book ).

I think Random House was the publisher.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I haven't read House of Leaves, but as I understand it, it is considered hip reading amongst older adolescents and young adults.

 

[Steerpike]

I haven't read House of Leaves, but as I understand it, it is considered hip reading amongst older adolescents and young adults.

Seems plausible, given the subject matter. Though the people I know who have read it are all 30s-40s in age. In any event, it's pretty good and worth checking just to see what can be done with the novel form.

 

[Russ]

First novel. Unknown author. Breaks just about every rule. The guy uses font colors (rarely) and lots of weird text tricks (boxes with backwards writing, etc). Breaks the fourth wall. There are two stories going on - one in the story proper, and one in the voluminous footnotes. And that's just getting started.

And not only did he sell it as a first-time author, the book did really well (and it's also a really cool book ).

I think Random House was the publisher.

It would be interesting to talk to the acquiring editor and see how it came to pass.

 

[Russ]

It's much more interesting, in my view, to talk about the mechanics of what is going on, as T. Allen Smith and others did above. Talking about what you find more effective and why, and presenting substantive writing-based reasoning to adopt one path over the other (if in fact one needs to be adopted over the other). That makes for good discussion in a writing forum.

Thanks for opening up this broader and interesting issue about what makes for good conversation on a writing site. While I think there is value in discussing mechanics and working your way up from first principles, I have to respectfully disagree with underestimating the value of receiving advice from successful and experienced professionals in the field. Bear with me for a minute on this one.

Now, I really enjoy and have found value in critique groups. But I was reading someone (can't remember who, it was an experienced writing pro and instructor) who made a comment along the lines of "Writing is the only profession where an amateur will get together with a group of other amateurs and ask for their thoughts in the hope of becoming more professional." So while I think there is value in critique groups, I think you need to understand their practical limitations.

When I started writing fiction, the internet was not was it is today. To get access to the advice of professional writers on craft you had to buy books, or go down to say UFT to study with working professionals, or go to cons, or perhaps study in the field at Seton Hill or elsewhere. Access to the thoughts of writing professionals on writing was quite difficult and often expensive. Now we have unprecedented access to the knowledge of experienced professionals through the internet, it seems intentionally self destructive to downgrade the value of that information or not take it seriously.

Now I fully realize that writing is more subjective than say medicine or auto mechanics, but if I am sitting around with a bunch of my buddies talking about how to reduce a tibia fracture, that is all well and good, and it may well be more interesting to hear their ideas, but if I really want to do it, then the advice of the experienced orthopod is more useful. Same thing on say modifying my Audi engine. It is all well and good to chat about it from first principles, but if I have access to an Audi master mechanic who says "our experience is that you will get the best result if you do X", which advice has more value for me?

Now I can completely understand the social/emotional reasons that many people choose not to follow advice from experienced professionals and sometimes it works out great for them. But passion, in many circumstances, cannot overcome lack of experience, training and guidance.

I am all for free and creative discussion of writing issues, but to ignore or downgrade the wealth of knowledge we now have at our fingertips from top working professionals would seem to me foolish.

 

[Devor]

@Russ,

I'm joining the conversation late, and I haven't adequately caught up on the discussion. So forgive me a little, but I wanted to respond to this:

But I was reading someone (can't remember who, it was an experienced writing pro and instructor) who made a comment along the lines of "Writing is the only profession where an amateur will get together with a group of other amateurs and ask for their thoughts in the hope of becoming more professional." So while I think there is value in critique groups, I think you need to understand their practical limitations.

I agree with you, by and large, that the advice of the experts shouldn't be ignored. And that critique groups can't replace professional editing.

But e-publishing continues to fracture the industry. The market is changing - the gap between Gen X and the millenials is tremendous. Amazon reviews and recommendations - I would argue - have increased reader selectivity and lessened the reliance on impulse buys, as well as increasing the viability of niche markets. Ereaders like the Kindle have changed the very experience of reading a book. Things are changing very rapidly, and I'm not sure the advice blogs really keep up with it.

And advice has always followed fads to begin with. For instance, before we were only using said, authors would tell you never to use said. Isn't one just a reaction to the other?

So when is advice real and lasting, when is it style, and when is it temporary or a fad? That's a real question that's not so easily answered.

 

[glutton]

And advice has always followed fads to begin with. For instance, before we were only using said, authors would tell you never to use said.

So when is advice real and lasting, when is it style, and when is it a fad? That's a real question that's not so easily answered.

It was only a few years ago that common advice was to put thoughts in italics, now some are saying not to do it. If going the trad publishing route by the time your book comes out the advice that was prevalent when writing it has a good chance of being a bygone fad.

 

[Russ]

@Russ,

I'm joining the conversation late, and I haven't adequately caught up on the discussion. So forgive me a little, but I wanted to respond to this:




I agree with you, by and large, that the advice of the experts shouldn't be ignored. And that critique groups can't replace professional editing.

But e-publishing continues to fracture the industry. The market is changing - the gap between Gen X and the millenials is tremendous. Amazon reviews and recommendations - I would argue - have increased reader selectivity and lessened the reliance on impulse buys, as well as increasing the viability of niche markets. Ereaders like the Kindle have changed the very experience of reading a book. Things are changing very rapidly.

And advice has always followed fads to begin with. For instance, before we were only using said, authors would tell you never to use said.

So when is advice real and lasting, when is it style, and when is it a fad? That's a real question that's not so easily answered.

Things are changing very rapidly indeed and you hit on some very important points.

The question of how readers make a buying choice today is a fascinating one. Are there less gatekeepers or just different gatekeepers? These are things that the modern writer must absolutely wrestle with...but it does not mean that we are in the dark about them, or that there are not working professionals who can give us good information to work with. You just get that information from different people.

In the e-pub world I have a friend who is running a company that publishes only e versions of erotic fiction that is based on a model that I have never seen used in publishing before and it is doing really, really well. A couple of days ago I had a meeting with a chap who is a social media marketer who we are working with at my law firm, who has a continuous track record of successful social media marketing campaigns that have worked nation wide. If I have access to that quality of information why would I downgrade it or not seek it out? What they say is not written on stone tablets, but does not the rational person have to assign it a high value?

And you do have to look at your sources and their strengths and weaknesses. I might not ask an older but still popular writer about how to maximize facebook for sales, but when say, David Morrell, talks about the craft of writing I still think it has high value.

Style and audience desires will change. But that does not mean we do not need to make decisions about what we are doing now. If I am looking at that broken leg that needs to be reduced I can't say..."well there will be a different way to reduce it in five years so I should ignore the current standards."

 

[Nimue]

I think it's really interesting that all of these stylistic questions have ended up in the same thread: using colorful synonyms instead of "said", exclamation points, italics, capitalization. They seem to be members of a certain category of style usage--one that stands out against other writing. I might add to that category things like sesquipedalian vocab-words, ellipses, sentence fragments, or frequent adverbs and adjectives.

The issue with these things isn't that they are automatically bad writing (And I think some of us took issue with that message, or implied message.) The examples from published authors argues against that. The issue is that they can be symptoms of bad writing and most often are when used by amateur writers, and that's what's these professional editors and authors are pointing out.

But writing is all about context and style, so without a professional diagnosing our writing specifically, all we have is self-diagnosis. These rules are pointers--they tell us to look hard at these patterns. Consider whether these style tics are genuinely adding meaning in a way that stronger language or more careful phrasing could not. Consider the fact that these are possible pitfalls. If you come away completely confident in your stylistic choices, that's great, and that is a valid decision. But it is something to think long and honestly about.

 

[Chessie]

Now, I really enjoy and have found value in critique groups. But I was reading someone (can't remember who, it was an experienced writing pro and instructor) who made a comment along the lines of "Writing is the only profession where an amateur will get together with a group of other amateurs and ask for their thoughts in the hope of becoming more professional."

This sounds like John Truby to me. Or it could be Dean Wesley Smith. Either way, this is a familiar read.

I think the important thing to remember about these discussions is that they can only help us by providing a new perspective, to continue growing in our craft. It's the same as any profession, really. Except that it's not...since writing is an artform and people get rather personal over how they create. That's understandable. Take what applies, leave the rest. Clarity above all things, though. If a writer's stylistic choice is getting in the way of readers immersing in his story, then there's a problem.