fat characters

[Mad Swede]

We can also flip this the other way around, which I do a whole lot when drafting. As I write I have a habit of pausing with every single character, be they a prince of the realm ('prince' can be gender neutral, ask Skip) or some dude's horse, and I'll ask why this character needs to be the default. Do they need to be male, or white, or straight, or abled, or cis? And the answer is usually no. So, then I get to make some choices that enrich our story and our world building.

So, here's the question. What plot reasons do you have for characters to be the default?

It's taken me a while to work out how to reply to this. Yes, there are the usual answers in that it's appropriate for the plot and setting. But, I also wonder if this has to do with some of the deeper reasons most of us have to for writing. There are deeply personal reasons behind my decision to make two of my protagonists the way they are.

 

[Prince of Spires]

This is a sensitive topic, and so I've been debating if it's smart to step in with a dissenting opinion, since it's easy to take stuff out of context online. I also realize that being in the Netherlands might give me a different frame of mind about the discussion than people in other places. But I'll try anyway.

So, my first question, and I'm throwing this out to all and sundry, not just pmmg, is what would you consider diversity in your writing, and what is your plot reason for avoiding it?

I personally think this is a very leading question to ask. By framing it this way, it seems as if a writer has some obligation to include diversity in their writing. As if there is some sacred duty writers the world over have to do this and that anyone who doesn't has to justify their actions.

That is of course not the case. Anyone can write what they want and they are under no obligation to include or not include diverse characters. They also don't have to justify their actions one way or another. The only obligation you have as a writer is to the story you are telling.

I personally don't have a desire to get into race or gender politics in my writing. I don't feel any need to explore the consequences of LGBTQ+ behavior in my world, or even worry about it. I just want to tell a fun story my readers can enjoy with things that relate to me. Yes, that might be a consequence of being a straight white male living in a western country, but hey, that's what I am and I can't change that. Does that make my stories somehow less than others? I don't think so. They're topics that never come up in my stories, so why try to force them in.

The other side is that others are far more knowledgeable than I am in digging into diversity topics. It's very easy to do it wrong. If you want to see how to do so in films, check out the Crictical Drinker Youtube channel for reviews on films that have diversity shoved into them without giving it proper care and thought.

 

[Jackarandajam]

why do these characters who come from beyond the common narrative, ie not white/abled/straight/male/cis need a plot reason to exist?

I partially agree with the rhetorical question you're asking here; if a character is short they don't necessarily have to come from "NeinderHite, the land of the short people," which then has to be added to the map somewhere and incorporated into the plot. People can usually look and be different without it having to be a plot point, depending on how the story is set.

I think the entirety of everything that falls into the sweeping category of diversity shouldn't have to be discussed every time the word comes up in a thread.

BMI variation in characters is a specific diversity topic, one that people should be able to weigh into (mwahahaha) without having to either swear to write "it's a small, small world" fiction or be thrown into the camp of "white/abled/straight/male/cis" diversity-haters.

I think the all-or-nothing aspect of these conversations is why they don't ever seem to go anywhere, everyone just hails their two cents from either the "yeah I do that" camp or the "don't tell me what to do" camp.

 

[pmmg]

But here's another question for us. If we only bring in 'diverse' characters as needed or as is considered appropriate, why do these characters who come from beyond the common narrative, ie not white/abled/straight/male/cis need a plot reason to exist?

I've been turning the wheels as well as to how I might answer this, and my answers are too many to encompass.

Here the secret, they are not diverse. They are only different from me. It only feels diverse cause its not what I would choose to write. I dont share the mindset that there is some added special thing when I find reasons to include it. I see no reason add it for the sake of adding it. And I am not interested in including the issues that surround such things in my story, for which there is much real world disagreement between views.

There is nothing wrong with stories that feature prominently white males. White males have accomplished a heck of a lot in this world. I dont take pleasure in finding ways to make inclusion of something different a priority. I dont dislike or hate on on white males.

They need a plot reason to exist in 'my' story, because my story is not about an area of the world where non-white male types would be prevalent.

So, here's the question. What plot reasons do you have for characters to be the default?

Personal reasons, many.

Plot reasons? I mean...the story is underway. After it is underway, the reasons become many again. Prior...well, I could choose a different story. But, ya know, I am writing a quasi-white cultured semi-feudal society in a world without much travel or integration, and not much reason to be friendly towards their neighbors. I could, say, change it all and write them all as African. But unless I changed the culture with it, it would just be window dressing. Black people would not relate to that, or find something noble in it, they would think it pandering. I would give them more respect than that. And then to do it would just be feeding the bear.

I wrote prior that I include these things when they make sense. In some places, they do make sense and in some places they are in there. That I did because it is true to the world. If it wasn't, they'd still be in some far off other place.

 

[skip.knox]

>What plot reasons do you have for characters to be the default?
None.

But I do have a writing reason. As has been said (more than once), one can point to any number of examples where the attempt at inclusion was ham-handed, even lazy (an earlier generation called this tokenism), with a result that both the story and the inclusion was harmed or at least done a disservice.

I'm a white, cis, male. I'm also not neurodivergent, obese, or ... I'm sure I'm leaving out elements, but you get the idea. As such, the odds of me doing a disservice to any number of (modern) communities is higher than it would be were I a member of those communities. Which means I have to work harder, do research, probably hundreds of hours of research. But let's postulate that it might only take a dozen hours. Consider it like doing a bit of location or historical research. Even granting all that, I just don't feel *comfortable* going down certain roads.

Community does, however, interest me. Who is included, who is excluded, why and by what means? I've looked at such questions as a historian: the divide between Christian and pagan, between orthodox and heretic, between urban and rural, elites and commoners. The Middle Ages are a rich field for considering these kinds of things. Well, ok, so are more modern times. Anywhere one finds humans, you'll find such divisions and inclusions.

I touch on these themes in my books. They aren't the point of the stories, and here I think we come to a crucial divide. If something like race (in its modern, Western form of skin color plus sub-culture) is the point of the story, then you need at least two races and you'd better handle both well. That's different from simply having some "different" folks in the background or as walk-ons. I do agree with folks here who argue that there has to be a story reason, though I don't think that's the whole matter. After all, I'm the architect of the story. I can choose to *ahem* include whatever themes and characters I want. I'm the one who makes them matter to the story. I can write a story set entirely somewhere in northern Europe and still have people of color in it. That's not the story choosing, that's me.

I have to admit that I write human characters who are familiar to me. At the same time, I try very hard to find ways to make different kinds of humans. I also try to make elves and dwarves who exhibit regional or cultural differences while also being clearly not human. It's tricksy, it is. I've said other times that I see fantasy as a place where we can explore "diversity" however conceived in a way that is separate from modern realities, assumptions, and expectations. In this I see a parallel with earlier generations of science fiction that openly explored socio-political themes from the safe haven of other planets.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Kaleidoscope Fantasy: Fiction stories in which the author has prioritized maximum representation and inclusion throughout the work, with direct parallels between their story world and modern day culture. Issues of race, body image, sexuality and gender are generally brought to the forefront of character arcs and plot. Characters are almost never white/abled/straight/male/cis.

There, I fixed it.
Now there's a subgenre dedicated to it. Not everyone has to write within this subgenre anymore than everyone has to write within Grimdark or Swords and Sorcery, but those that want to can.

Now we can say gracious things to each other like
"Oh, you write K-fiction? Not really my thing, but good on ya! Sounds like a lot of work."
Or
"I think everybody should try writing K fiction at least once, even if it's just a short story. Really helps you think through how you feel about current issues and how that affects your writing."
Or
"I like to throw out a non-k short or two in between my kfiction wip series. Helps me clear my head."

Pretty sure i just fixed everything. You are all welcome.

 

[Incanus]

For myself, I’m going to try to keep things relatively simple on this subject.

I’m not the least bit offended when confronted with diversity displayed in a story, even when it sometimes overshoots the mark (which is largely a matter of opinion). Neither do I feel obligated to include it in my story. My story will naturally have some elements of diversity in it, but in its own way as dictated by the setting.

Since some people will complain I didn’t do enough and others will complain I added too much, I see no reason to worry over it one way or the other. Not the hill I’m going to die on.

Nothing in my plot turns on issues of race, sexual orientation, or obesity. It does turn on cooperation or lack of cooperation. That’s what the story is about, and that is what it will be.

 

[Billybones]

You have Hitler, or the fat controller from Thomas the Tank engine? I mean, who would care if you put a little jiggle into it?

I call it a glass computer. If everyone was the same, we would be less or more divided, but sharply, so who would know? There are demographics, and darn old prejudice.

I hear a lot of racism from the same angle, such as token characters. And you have characters that traditionally pass wind. It‘s like playing chess by yourself, the look of it is pretty dumb.

Giant NAZI Killer robots, oh no. The Mecha-Masters you could call it. Oh please dont ban me.

 

[Miles Lacey]

When it comes to discussions about diversity it's usually from the American perspective. It is assumed that because most American fiction tends to have white, heterosexual, biologically male or female and abled main characters then this must be the case throughout the West. That assumption is wrong.

Here in New Zealand fantasy writers are increasingly drawing upon Māori and Pacific Island myths and legends for their inspiration. That means their main characters are non-white. A surprisingly large number of those stories feature female main characters. LGBT+ people don't usually feature that much as there is still a lot of hostility towards them in Māori and Pacific Island communities thanks to a combination of macho masculinity (especially among Māori) and the insidious influence of fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity. It must be added here that a lot of fantasy writers in this country are non-white, disabled, LGBT+ and/or non-binary/transgender.

Fantasy is one of the few genres where characters who are not what A E Lowan describes as "default" can be introduced where it doesn't come across as tokenistic, contrived or woke. As long as the story telling and the world building is sound readers won't have a problem with characters who are non-white, disabled, LGBT+ and/or non-binary/transgender.

 

[pmmg]

Fantasy is one of the few genres where characters who are not what A E Lowan describes as "default" can be introduced where it doesn't come across as tokenistic, contrived or woke. As long as the story telling and the world building is sound readers won't have a problem with characters who are non-white, disabled, LGBT+ and/or non-binary/transgender.

Well, I cant speak to the writer scene in New Zealand. If that is how it is, then how would I know different.

You give me a world like the one Tolkien displayed, and fill it with all the tokenism we see today, and I am very likely to say BS. Give me a different world, modern US perhaps, and yeah, its much more likely for an integrated world and cast. If fantasy stories are showing things like integrated population in areas they really wouldn't be, I am very likely to start asking questions as to how it came to be. So, I have to say, I don't think fantasy gets a special pass on that.

I'll also have to bite and say, there are always going to be readers who will choose not to read things because of its content. A good and well executed story may break through that somewhat, but no story is capable of winning universal acceptance.

Sorry you dont like Christians.

 

[Miles Lacey]

Well, I cant speak to the writer scene in New Zealand. If that is how it is, then how would I know different.

You give me a world like the one Tolkien displayed, and fill it with all the tokenism we see today, and I am very likely to say BS. Give me a different world, modern US perhaps, and yeah, its much more likely for an integrated world and cast. If fantasy stories are showing things like integrated population in areas they really wouldn't be, I am very likely to start asking questions as to how it came to be. So, I have to say, I don't think fantasy gets a special pass on that.

I'll also have to bite and say, there are always going to be readers who will choose not to read things because of its content. A good and well executed story may break through that somewhat, but no story is capable of winning universal acceptance.

Sorry you dont like Christians.

There's plenty of room for diversity in a Tolkien-like setting but one has to be careful how it is done. The line between something being plausible and laughable is a fine one.

For example, a farming village would most likely have a handful of close-knit families who would close ranks if anyone showed up who wasn't like them. Thus, a non-white, LGBT+, disabled and non-binary character would be implausible in such a setting.. In contrast, a port would have a wide diversity of people because they were places where traders, merchants, soldiers, aristocrats, prostitutes, entertainers, money lenders and many others from all over the known world would turn up. Therefore, a non-white, LGBT+, disabled and non-binary character would be somewhat believable, particularly if you've read about places like Port Royal in what is now Jamaica, Ravenser Odd in Yorkshire and Rungholt in Germany.

Yes, many readers won't read books because they don't like the content as all readers have their own particular tastes when it comes to fiction. For example, I don't like reading books about drag queens, domestic violence or people with mental health issues.

I didn't say I don't like Christians. I don't like evangelical or fundamentalist Christianity because of what it has done in the South Pacific. The churches paved the way for the colonisation of the region and the destruction of many traditional religious beliefs and practices.

 

[Queshire]

What makes a Tolkien-like setting Tolkien-like though?

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Let's back off on the religious discussion, guys. We're all friends here and this can get heated very quickly.

 

[Miles Lacey]

Let's back off on the religious discussion, guys. We're all friends here and this can get heated very quickly.

Agreed. [Waves flag of truce.]

 

[Queshire]

I could imagine an old Roman-style Empire that, in order to reduce the chance of rebellion, sent soldiers recruited from newly conquered provinces to go on to conquer new provinces. With some of those soldiers left abandoned when the empire collapsed you could have farming villages that have had non-white folk living there for generations.

Similarly, maybe the local folk religion that deals with the fae is more friendly to LGBT / non-binary folk than the Sun God followed by the paladins in the big city.

Finally it's a medieval farming village. One bad tumble off of a horse could leave somebody disabled. That could be especially true if they're too small to have access to a cleric's healing magic.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I could imagine an old Roman-style Empire that, in order to reduce the chance of rebellion, sent soldiers recruited from newly conquered provinces to go on to conquer new provinces. With some of those soldiers left abandoned when the empire collapsed you could have farming villages that have had non-white folk living there for generations.

Similarly, maybe the local folk religion that deals with the fae is more friendly to LGBT / non-binary folk than the Sun God followed by the paladins in the big city.

Finally it's a medieval farming village. One bad tumble off of a horse could leave somebody disabled. That could be especially true if they're too small to have access to a cleric's healing magic.

Plus, it's just proven that populations linked by trade will mingle. We can see that in genetics and in historical records when we look beyond the valiant effort Victorian historians made at erasing and rewriting primary source material to reflect their narrow views of what the world should look like. These are the same ones who scrubbed the paint off of Greek and Roman statuary because they thought it gauche and white was much more desirable.

 

[Finchbearer]

I think it’s always going to be about the perspective you’re coming from as a writer.

Tolkien, if we’re referencing him here, was shaped by his own world and his experiences. He was mainly a scholar of Western European stuff, which is reflected in Middle Earth. Middle Earth, the name, is also not his original creation. He drew directly from the old folklore, mythology and sagas already written and understood. He also did not explicitly say ‘all my characters are white’, and actually his harfoots are described as darker skinned. So, Peter Jackson is actually who we *could* blame for making lotr a white thing. On his lack of female characters, in reading his work, that does not bother me. I can read 1000 other books with more female main characters in, and I actually like the female characters Tolkien does represent. He never sexualises them, which I think owed to his attitude at the time he was writing in. I also enjoy the comfortable masculinity of his work.

I write predominantly female main characters because I want to write female positive fantasy. By that I mean female characters who have their own agency, and their own storyline that drives the plot. NOT female characters who are just plot devices.

 

[Queshire]

Magic the Gathering had a hard challenge when they were doing Lord of the Rings cards. Naturally they'd want to stand out from the movie version everyone is familiar with, but with something with the fantasy history of Magic the Gathering they'd also want to make sure they're distinct from the sort of standardized fantasy characters inspired by Tolkien. I think they did a pretty decent job. I love their take on Gollum in particular.

 

[Finchbearer]

On googling what they look like, I think they did do a good job. It’s all too easy to stick to the visuals that have come before.

 

[Aldarion]

Fat characters are fine... but one has to keep in mind that further in time one goes, fat characters would get rarer. Charles the Fat was nicknamed the Fat for a reason... it was rather unusual at the time. In modern developed world however, Charles the Fat would be Charles the Normal. We, as a civilization, are sick - physically, mentally and sociologically. And IMO, writers should take care not to project things backwards.

So if you are writing medieval fantasy, an occasional fat character is fine... but he will be unusual, especially if he's obese rather than fat; and should be treated as such.

Magic the Gathering had a hard challenge when they were doing Lord of the Rings cards. Naturally they'd want to stand out from the movie version everyone is familiar with, but with something with the fantasy history of Magic the Gathering they'd also want to make sure they're distinct from the sort of standardized fantasy characters inspired by Tolkien. I think they did a pretty decent job. I love their take on Gollum in particular.

On googling what they look like, I think they did do a good job. It’s all too easy to stick to the visuals that have come before.

If you are talking about this set... They did fine if they were doing generalized fantasy, but as far as putting Tolkien to paper goes, they did terribly. Characters look completely unlike Tolkien's descriptions, garbage-ass armor that a) is badly designed in historical terms and b) completely contrary to what Tolkien had described (there was no plate armor in the books!), weapons that are contrary to what Tolkien had described, and Giant Eagles oh God oh why...