fat characters

[Finchbearer]

They definitely took a creative license and ran with it - but in the name of fun and changing things up I’d say why not? Nobody said that sticking to the original canon was necessary, although it depends on the application. Here, I can see that it was fun to portray Éowyn as black. Plus I think that the actress who Peter Jackson cast was just wrong for the role. I do not get the impression that she was a Valkyrie level warrior from the movies. If you’re going to cast an actor based on looks…make sure they can act too.

 

[Finchbearer]

I think I can see why they’d drive you crazy Aldarion

 

[Queshire]

I respect the effort the artists put into the cards and it's an interesting take on things.

Still, Wizards of the Coast has gotten up to enough shit that if you told me they only did things that way to get people talking (well, arguing really) about the set then I wouldn't be surprised. More people talking about them means more cards sold after all.

 

[Ban]

I'm surprised at how long this thread has become considering that after reading and rereading the original post multiple times, I still have no clue what (if anything) the question or topic is. Are we supposed to just gawk at fictional girth or what exactly is expected?

 

[Queshire]

The natural flow of conversation is nice, is it not?

 

[Finchbearer]

In that sense, there was no thread to derail. I think at the mere mention of the words ‘fat’ and ‘diversity’ sparked a debate.

 

[Jackarandajam]

So if you are writing medieval fantasy, an occasional fat character is fine... but he will be unusual, especially if he's obese rather than fat; and should be treated as such.

I would make two distinctions here:

First, the historical accuracy of what is usually termed "medieval fantasy" is fairly up in the air. If it's historical fantasy, that's a of course a different ball of wax, but generally nobody bats an eye about loads of creative license being taken (particularly armor and technology borrowed from vastly different centuries) in a fantasy book that is borrowing from a historical setting without openly claiming accuracy.

Second (and this is more to my earlier point), what we understand to be muscular would have to be thrown out using the same logic. Arnold Schwarzenegger portraying Conan, with his sculpting machines for muscles that are lightly used in a practical setting, 10,000 calorie a day diet, and steady steroid cycles was easily as historically inaccurate a body type as extreme obesity.
While warriors being hand-sculpted by nobility could have access to the combination of caloric intake and exercise necessary and a reason to pursue both, achieving that golden ratio of dinner-plate pecs and an eight-pack would be mythically rare, if even possible without the needles that make the puffy happen.

I'm not taking a big stand for the necessity of doing anything here, just pointing out that it goes both ways. As someone who does actively pursue low body fat and increased muscle mass, I'm more likely to raise an eyebrow at a whole team of adventurers who are built like gym rats and wonder where they're each getting nine chickens-worth of white meat a week and how they pack their preachers bench, then I am at a fat poor guy.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Fat characters are fine... but one has to keep in mind that further in time one goes, fat characters would get rarer. Charles the Fat was nicknamed the Fat for a reason... it was rather unusual at the time. In modern developed world however, Charles the Fat would be Charles the Normal. We, as a civilization, are sick - physically, mentally and sociologically. And IMO, writers should take care not to project things backwards.

So if you are writing medieval fantasy, an occasional fat character is fine... but he will be unusual, especially if he's obese rather than fat; and should be treated as such.

*offers one of wife's homemade cinnamon rolls at 6:30am*

*munch munch munch*

 

[Fyri]

*stumbles in, late to the party*

I think there are a lot of good points being tossed around here. Diversity (like fat people) should make sense when included (i.e. don't write token characters or make it obvious a character was only included to meet a "diversity checkmark"), but also, why are you not including them? Why can't they just...exist in a natural way? It would make a story more realistic, I think--depending on your setting (I don't expect a fat person to be in a group of long-time adventuring soldiers, but remember, Samwise Gamgee was fat (not that Tolkien did a great job making his world diverse, but that's a different convo)).

But, yeah. Is there a worldbuilding reason that everyone is white or skinny or straight? To skirt away from "you should do this because politics," consider "Is this a way you could improve your writing/worldbuilding skills to make a more interesting/engaging story?" Many people have a painfully slow metabolism. Or, like me, I have a *high metabolism* and have the opposite problem--I struggle to gain/maintain weight and not look gaunt! Also--why might a scar or mutation be more likely than a different skin color or sexuality?

Just things to consider. There are also many reasons not to include these kinds of characters, but I think those have already been said.

 

[Queshire]

Wasn't gout known as the king's disease?

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Wasn't gout known as the king's disease?

Yup.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Thinking about it, doing a story about gym rat adventurers would be hysterical:

***Team is starving, begs for food at peasants house, peasant brings out a loaf of bread and sausages.
Dwarf, weakly: "actually I'm in my cutting phase. Can I just get skinless salmon and steamed broccoli?"
Elf, sprawled on the ground: "Did you process that sausage or did you have it done? I'm just curious about added sulfites and sodium content."
----
Elf: "Bro'Se'Fus, you're mortally wounded! why, oh why did you wear your travel pack into the epic battle?!?"
Bro'Se'Fus: "Wanted to get the protein in... during my 30 minute metabolic window... after the fight..." ***Dies.
---
Dwarf: "Give me mine axe back, Elf, before I go into 'roid rage!"
Elf, doing a weighted mace set with the dwarfs axe: "Three more reps. Not everybody on the team is an endomorph, dude."
Dwarf: "You're just jealous of my short arms! If you'd fully extend you'd have better development!"
***slings tent into a creek and headbutts a tree, roaring.
---

Yeah. Yeah I wanna write this.

---

EDIT:
***Classic inexplicably yolked human fantasy adventurer sits silently at the fire, chewing a dried lizard and chugging a quart of mead.
Elf, whispered to the dwarf without taking his eyes off the adventurer: "Do you think it's genetic? It has to be genetic."
Dwarf, raised voice cracking slightly: "Hey! Hey you! What, ah... what species are you?"

 

[Jackarandajam]

***Evil wizard who put The Curse Of The Gorilla on that-one-guy yells out the window of his creepy tower at the long line of adventurers shouting insults and profanity up at him:
"I'M CHARGING FOR THIS CURSE NOW, I HOPE YOU ALL UNDERSTAND THAT. I HOPE YOU BROUGHT MONEY. I DIDN'T SIGN UP FOR THIS."

 

[Miles Lacey]

*stumbles in, late to the party*

I think there are a lot of good points being tossed around here. Diversity (like fat people) should make sense when included (i.e. don't write token characters or make it obvious a character was only included to meet a "diversity checkmark"), but also, why are you not including them? Why can't they just...exist in a natural way? It would make a story more realistic, I think--depending on your setting (I don't expect a fat person to be in a group of long-time adventuring soldiers, but remember, Samwise Gamgee was fat (not that Tolkien did a great job making his world diverse, but that's a different convo)).

But, yeah. Is there a worldbuilding reason that everyone is white or skinny or straight? To skirt away from "you should do this because politics," consider "Is this a way you could improve your writing/worldbuilding skills to make a more interesting/engaging story?" Many people have a painfully slow metabolism. Or, like me, I have a *high metabolism* and have the opposite problem--I struggle to gain/maintain weight and not look gaunt! Also--why might a scar or mutation be more likely than a different skin color or sexuality?

Just things to consider. There are also many reasons not to include these kinds of characters, but I think those have already been said.

Here's how I came up with the diversity in my story:

Move setting to the tropics, as in the equivalent of southeast Asia and the Pacific Islands. Looks up ethnic groups in the tropics. Most people in tropical areas aren't white. Change skin colour of characters.

Tropical rain is hot. Check wardrobes of people in the tropics via YouTube and other sources. Most wear loose and light clothing as it dries quickly and doesn't suffocate the wearer. Curious: rain coats could actually kill a person in the tropics. Something to do with heat exhaustion or something.

Check various cultures. What are some core values of the non-Abrahamic faiths? Respect for elders, bowing to others, loss of face is grave insult, no laws against LGBT+ people, sex is seen as normal and healthy but there are certain rules surrounding it (mostly in relation to adultery) and prayer at temples and shrines very important. Marriage based mostly around children.

Don't like Abrahamic-based faiths. Think of alternative. Create pantheon of twelve gods: five male, five female and two non-binary/transgender. Religious beliefs based very loosely upon Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist and traditional Pacific Island faiths.

Don't want female main character to have children. How to do that with a plausible explanation. Solution: create a system of magic that is bestowed upon certain people when they reach a certain age. Consequence of receiving magic: sterilisation. Problem solved. Marriage being based on raising children means sterile people can't marry.

Predominant sexuality is bisexuality. How does that affect sex, family, marriage and society? Quartets (traditionally two males and two females), not couples, and their biological children become the traditional family unit. Head of family is eldest adult regardless of gender. Inheritance based on age, not gender. How to avoid huge families? Reliable contraceptive potions that religious beliefs don't condemn.

Disabled people? Undecided about including them. Narrator of story is part time dragon slayer. Maybe he could be disabled as result of dragon slaying assignment going badly wrong or being attacked by a dragon? Will think about that.

Main character? Young female. Aged at least sixteen as age of consent in most countries including New Zealand is sixteen. Average looks, average build, mixed race, minimum wage worker, lives in same house as narrator at start of story, few friends due to socio-economic status and being mixed race, and she's an unranked mage meaning she can't practice magic in own right.

Non-binary characters? No plausible reason for not having non-binary/transgender character among the main character's companions. Perhaps make the storyteller character non-binary? Or the love interest? Love interest works as hotel receptionist and as a conjurer's assistant so making them non-binary would be interesting but need to avoid stereotyping or making character a drag queen. Too clichéd.

 

[Finchbearer]

That’s fine if that’s the way you’ve approached your own novel Miles Lacey, however for me they do feel too absolute. Single linear solutions to each problem means there’s not a lot of room for alternatives, despite these solutions being presented as alternatives in the first place. Individualised character choices is more my own approach.

The subject around sterilisation, especially where the onus is on the female to ensure she won’t get pregnant might not come across in the way you want it to.

 

[Jackarandajam]

***Jack stares at the ceiling, mouth hanging open, trying to fathom a fantasy novel in which no one sings Amazing Grace or wears raincoats.

 

[Aldarion]

I would make two distinctions here:

First, the historical accuracy of what is usually termed "medieval fantasy" is fairly up in the air. If it's historical fantasy, that's a of course a different ball of wax, but generally nobody bats an eye about loads of creative license being taken (particularly armor and technology borrowed from vastly different centuries) in a fantasy book that is borrowing from a historical setting without openly claiming accuracy.

Second (and this is more to my earlier point), what we understand to be muscular would have to be thrown out using the same logic. Arnold Schwarzenegger portraying Conan, with his sculpting machines for muscles that are lightly used in a practical setting, 10,000 calorie a day diet, and steady steroid cycles was easily as historically inaccurate a body type as extreme obesity.
While warriors being hand-sculpted by nobility could have access to the combination of caloric intake and exercise necessary and a reason to pursue both, achieving that golden ratio of dinner-plate pecs and an eight-pack would be mythically rare, if even possible without the needles that make the puffy happen.

I'm not taking a big stand for the necessity of doing anything here, just pointing out that it goes both ways. As someone who does actively pursue low body fat and increased muscle mass, I'm more likely to raise an eyebrow at a whole team of adventurers who are built like gym rats and wonder where they're each getting nine chickens-worth of white meat a week and how they pack their preachers bench, then I am at a fat poor guy.

And my point equally stands when it comes to muscular characters. Bodybuilders are quite literally freaks; as you point out, premodern people did not have massive quantities of food, and even those that did, did not have steroids, exercise machines and so on. Rather, anybody looking to write a muscular characters should look to Greek and Renaissance sculpture for inspiration... these were made using real people as models, and were probably on the upper end of muscularity for people of the time. Ancient athletes were basically celebrities, and could have massive amounts of food as well as enough free time to dedicate to building muscle. But most people, even the nobility and the soldiers, will have simply had no time to achieve such physique.

And even if they could have built themselves up to the bodybuilder levels, they would not have done so. Fantasy warriors especially are often portrayed as huge, but a massive amount of muscle is a disadvantage in a fight or especially on campaign. So while, say, knights technically could have eaten enough food to look like Conan the Barbarian or the Mountain, most of them will not have done so. So six pack maybe, but an overall build closer to a dancer or a swimmer than a roided up bodybuilder. I actually wrote on the topic after seeing too many fantasy warriors who looked like Mr. Olympia contestants.

There is also an issue of food. If you really want to have loads of fat people in medieval setting, you can do it... but better explain where all the sugar comes from! Reason why people get fat in developed world is threefold:

1. There is a general lack of physical activity.
2. Food is easily available in large quantities.
3. Most of the food we eat today is garbage.

Main problem are the grains. When you eat grains or grain products (especially white bread), your insulin goes on a rollercoaster. Eat grains > blood sugar skyrockets > body releases insulin > blood sugar plummets > eat more grains. Rinse and repeat until everybody is a walking ball of lard.

But something like that was much less likely in premodern times. Ancient and medieval grains had less gluten, and gluten itself was easier to digest. Ancient wheat (spelt) also had less sugar and carbs, but more fiber, vitamins, minerals and protein. But perhaps more importantly, there was far less of it. Single wheat stalk of modern hybridized wheat will provide nearly an order of magnitude (and perhaps more) grain than a stalk of medieval wheat, and modern farming techniques also mean that it is possible to have far more wheat per acre as well. As a result, grain was actually far less important part of diet for medieval people, even though bread was eaten every day and in significant quantities. So while grain is good for making people fat, peasants generally did not get fat as they wouldn't have enough food to regularly overeat, and whatever they did eat was spent on hard work.

That being said, it does appear that monks really were obese:

Bones reveal chubby monks aplenty

The full truth about one of Britain's favourite historical fatties has been tracked down by a three-year study of overweight medieval monks.

www.theguardian.com

So if you want to have obese characters, you know where to find them!

 

[Ban]

As a small addendum, because I love strength sports, one thing people (not just writers) misunderstand about musculature is how inflated the modern (silver age of bodybuilding and beyond) depiction and cultivation of pectorals are. Historically, chests were comparatively slight, even among bodybuilders of the bronze age of bodybuilding and their strength sports predecessors. That is to say, the early 20th century and before. The fixation on training these muscles to bulge forth is a rather new notion.

 

[Incanus]

But I really, really want to have my entire cast of characters in bikini armor.

Who could possibly have a problem with that?

(OK, just kidding, of course.)

 

[Miles Lacey]

That’s fine if that’s the way you’ve approached your own novel Miles Lacey, however for me they do feel too absolute. Single linear solutions to each problem means there’s not a lot of room for alternatives, despite these solutions being presented as alternatives in the first place. Individualised character choices is more my own approach.

The subject around sterilisation, especially where the onus is on the female to ensure she won’t get pregnant might not come across in the way you want it to.

The planning is more absolute than the execution because things do change as the story progresses. It's just the way my thought processes work.

Magic is gifted by the gods through something similar to a lightning bolt from the heavens. No one has worked out exactly how those gifted with magic are rendered sterile. One of the reasons why I made sterility a consequence of magic was that I wanted the price of being gifted with magic one that has ramifications both individually and within society as a whole.