From racism to feminism...

[Steerpike]

I'm batting around a story idea - in fact, I've done a little bit with the first scene already. The theme relates to strong female characters as they are judged in terms of patriarchal society.

Most strong female characters in books are portrayed as strong because they have in some way accepted the patriarchal value system as the correct one and they have adapted themselves to it. I have female characters that fit into that category, as I look back at them.

This isn't too surprising because mainstream feminism in our real society has essentially bought in to patriarchy, and has ratified the value and judgment system that comes with it. They've effectively given up a potential first line in the war (if you want to call it that) for equality (namely, equality of valuation of women, not equality by adoption of and acting within patriarchy).

So the idea is to have a story in which the strong central female character rejects the patriarchal value system and is successful outside of it. In other words, she isn't a strong woman because she's adopted roles traditionally belonging to males and measured her worth as a result of doing so, she is strong because she brings value to roles traditionally belonging to females, and traditionally de-valued in patriarchy because of that association.

Getting to the question: can anyone recommend stories that reflect this. I can think of a few by Angela Carter, who was a well-known (in literary circles) writer of fantasy short stories with feminist themes. Apart from those stories, I can't think of many within the genre. I'd like to know more of what is out there before deciding whether this story will work.

 

[Jabrosky]

I confess that my current WIP's protagonist is a warrior woman. I have considered giving her a more "feminine" role for the reasons you mentioned, but then I realized that if she was going to be the heroine of an action-packed sword-and-sorcery story, a warrior would be a more appropriate occupation for her.

 

[Queshire]

I'll admit, I don't quite get what you're trying to say steer, but I don't agree that they accept patriarchal as the correct one. It seems to me that they relize it's not a thing you can change easily so instead they try to work with the system and change it from the inside.

Also, I don't think that a strong woman neccesarily has a man's occupation or any woman with a man's occupation will neccesarily be strong. It's just easiest to do it that way, because a women in a traditonally male dominated occupation will most likely have to become strong in order to deal with the added pressure.

Of course, personally I don't like the words strong or weak by themselves but that's neither here nor there.

As for your specific question, I can't immediately think of any such books off the top of my head, at best, I'd suggest the Discworld books featuring witches. They are cerainly strong women, and I'm pre~tty sure witching counts as a traditionally female field.

 

[Saigonnus]

There is a difference between being a warrior woman and being strong. I think the strength he is talking about is a strength of character not the physical type that rates how well you can use a sword.

A woman who sticks to her values; even if it goes against the grain of the normal societal structure or has alot of opposition from those in power would be considered a "strong" woman; even if she couldn't even lift a dagger to combat her enemies.

One like Joan of Arc is more "well-rounded" since she was absolutely resolute in her beliefs (however wrong-headed or misguided you believe them to be) AND she could use a sword; though very probably a lighter one than most guys used.

The opposite end of the spectrum are like the Amazonian women in a matriarchal society and have more muscles than many guys, use weapons just as well, but may not have the strongest sense of values aside from those to the clan.

How about martial artist women, those skilled in weapons? They don't need to have muscles like the hulk to use a naginata since it would have been designed for them. Why can't the same be true of a more traditional "western" archetype? I guess what I am trying to say is that too many people mistake physical strength with a strong personality and writers especially should be wary of falling into that stereotype.

Looking at much of the artwork that used for book covers or magazines, you can see the stereotype people use... chain mail bikinis, revealing slit skirts that would likely trip her up in real combat, wearing next to nothing. None of those are accurate even in the slightest to what a woman warrior would likely wear. She'd probably wear something similar to what the guys would wear, a padded doublet or shirt to protect from chafing, thick leather pants to likewise protect from the chafing of the chain mail she wears in battle, but who's to say that once she is relaxing at the end of the day, her armor and weapons put away that she wouldn't take a long bath with scented soaps and don a skirt or dress for a night of dancing at the tavern.

 

[Anders Ämting]

Man, this kind of discussion always make me feel a bit stupid - I really don't understand stuff like "feminism" or "patriarchal societies" or "gender roles," because I've never bothered to think about any of that stuff.

I just write my heroines the way I like them - intelligent, brave, capable and with a lot of character. I'm not even sure what more there is to it.

How about martial artist women, those skilled in weapons? They don't need to have muscles like the hulk to use a naginata since it would have been designed for them. Why can't the same be true of a more traditional "western" archetype? I guess what I am trying to say is that too many people mistake physical strength with a strong personality and writers especially should be wary of falling into that stereotype.

...Wait, why would a female martial artist not be muscular? I mean, "like the Hulk" is an exaggeration, of course, but she'd still want to do her regular pushups. It's not like male fighters don't work out.

I agree you shouldn't mistake physical strenght for strenght of character, but I'd still think a fairly impressive physique would be a natural consequence of something as demanding as regular combat training. Heck, one of my characters actively tries to hide the totally awesome shape her body is in because she wants to maintain a "delicate princess" image. XD

Point is, I don't really see a reason for why a martial artist woman who trains seriously would not want to be as physically powerful as possible.

 

[Saigonnus]

I am not saying they wouldn't be strong, likely they ARE physically capable from rigorous training, but may be "toned" rather than being a mass of muscle like men tend to be (and amazons). Women, as a general rule don't tend to get the muscles that most men get even if they work out the same amount of time doing the same thing. Maybe I came across the wrong way.

I am not saying a martial artist (or female character in general) shouldn't be strong either, if your character has a "man-like" physique, who am I to say that's wrong? I guess I just tend to think about realism in my characters; but perhaps I just think too much.

 

[Queshire]

Well most of those heavily muscled guys aren't they strong either, those muscles are just for show, and a lot of them are useless muscles that only get in the way when it comes to fighting. Well, admittedly, I'm just talking out of my ass here, that pretty much just comes from a manga I read, but I imagine it's not far off the truth. I mean, have you ever noticed that the winners of the world's strongest man competitions tend to look more like Larry the cable guy then Arnold Scwarchzenagger?

Also, several martial arts are specifically designed to allow a physically weaker fighter beat a physically stronger one by using their own power against them.

 

[The Blue Lotus]

The Earth's Children.

The female MC is strong both physicaly and mentaly. She bulks the social system of the group she lives with many times over.

They trained her to be a medicine women, she taught herself to hunt. They have a very Male dom society, she forces her will onto them many times. They exile her, she builds relations with other people and becomes a well respected person in every community she encounters.

 

[JBryden88]

Eh, IMO how one depicts females and race etc. depends on how one wants their fantasy world.

In the world I've crafted, as an example, females are treated differently culture to culture. In the northern barbarian region, women are expected to have kids - but they are also expected to be tough, because to be in that culture, you have to be tough. Having female qualities does not discount you from that, and so women often have a more equal say.

Whereas one of my two empires... treats women like absolute crap.

 

[Steerpike]

The Earth's Children.

The female MC is strong both physicaly and mentaly. She bulks the social system of the group she lives with many times over.

They trained her to be a medicine women, she taught herself to hunt. They have a very Male dom society, she forces her will onto them many times. They exile her, she builds relations with other people and becomes a well respected person in every community she encounters.

I've read Clan of the Cave Bear, but not the rest. Ayla is a pretty good example - not sure why I forgot her. Thanks!

 

[Steerpike]

To clarify my initial post, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the depiction of female characters moving into roles valued in patriarchy. That's most of what I see with female MCs in Fantasy, and it has been true of my own character.

My idea was to just try a story that is grounded, thematically, in another approach. This is an area of actual disagreement among feminists. If I remember correctly (and if not, please excuse me), one of the ideas underlying radical feminism is that the patriarchal value system is the wrong one. By contrast, liberal feminists (which are the most mainstream and probably what most people think of) seem to focus on advancing the status of women within patriarchy. In my view, this does give up the first front in the fight, but as Queshire notes above it may also be the most realistic approach.

My idea, though, is to try to create a story with a female MC who does not move into any of the roles traditionally valued by patriarchy, and to see how that could evolve as an interesting story.

 

[The Blue Lotus]

I've read Clan of the Cave Bear, but not the rest. Ayla is a pretty good example - not sure why I forgot her. Thanks!

You really must read the rest of the books!

I'm not just saying that because the MC is something along the lines of what you might be looking for but because they are just so darn good!

Her adventures in the following books are just too cool.

 

[ascanius]

Are you going for a character that views what and who she is as strong and her traits as strong even though the men around her view them and her as weak and her having weaknesses?

 

[ScipioSmith]

Shadows of the Apt.

The heroine, Che, starts the series as a crap swordswoman and struggling engineering student, and comes from a society similar to western society (de jure equality, de facto prejudice). By the current point of the series (book 7) she has pretty much given up on both of those things (indeed, engineering has been rendered beyond her by the laws of the universe), but has become a capable and experienced diplomat and consistently displays more courage, constancy and basic ethics than any of the more 'badass' male characters. She's also become one of the two most powerful magicians in the world but that's beside the point.

Then you have Seda, the Wasp Empress, who ascends to the throne of an intense patriarchy and, through playing to the feminie ideals of her society, is able to play the men around her like fiddles and win their undying loyalty (an assassin breaks into her room in the middle of the night, she talks to him and by morning he is ready to pledge his soul in service to her).

The series also includes a warrior woman in Tynisa, but her progression to Weaponsmastery is couched not in terms of her accepting male values as in accepting her Mantis-kinden heritage and buidling a relationship with her father.

Also, the series needs more love.

 

[Anders Ämting]

I am not saying they wouldn't be strong, likely they ARE physically capable from rigorous training, but may be "toned" rather than being a mass of muscle like men tend to be (and amazons). Women, as a general rule don't tend to get the muscles that most men get even if they work out the same amount of time doing the same thing. Maybe I came across the wrong way.

I guess you sorta made it sound like female fighters wouldn't need a lot of physical strenght, since they can just train with extra light weapons. That just struck me as sorta missing the whole point about training.

I am not saying a martial artist (or female character in general) shouldn't be strong either, if your character has a "man-like" physique, who am I to say that's wrong? I guess I just tend to think about realism in my characters; but perhaps I just think too much.

Well, I don't know about "man-like." She's more like a female Bruce Lee, I guess.

Well most of those heavily muscled guys aren't they strong either, those muscles are just for show, and a lot of them are useless muscles that only get in the way when it comes to fighting. Well, admittedly, I'm just talking out of my ass here, that pretty much just comes from a manga I read, but I imagine it's not far off the truth.

While there is certainly some truth to this, I would avoid using martal arts manga as serious research material. They tend to take certain... artistic liberties, to put it mildly.

Also, several martial arts are specifically designed to allow a physically weaker fighter beat a physically stronger one by using their own power against them.

Yeah, but if you think about it, there's nothing stopping a strong person from learning that same martial art.

To clarify my initial post, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the depiction of female characters moving into roles valued in patriarchy. That's most of what I see with female MCs in Fantasy, and it has been true of my own character.

My idea was to just try a story that is grounded, thematically, in another approach. This is an area of actual disagreement among feminists. If I remember correctly (and if not, please excuse me), one of the ideas underlying radical feminism is that the patriarchal value system is the wrong one. By contrast, liberal feminists (which are the most mainstream and probably what most people think of) seem to focus on advancing the status of women within patriarchy. In my view, this does give up the first front in the fight

Again, I haven't actually studied feminism of any kind, so this is probably way over my head... but isn't this a bit backwards? Aren't our value system a product of the patriarchy, rather then the other way around? That is to say, the reason our society is described as patriarchal to begin with is because the roles valued by society are traditionally considered to belong to the male half of humanity?

(I'm assuming that by "traditionally male roles" we're talking about authority figures, holders of important titles, family providers and so on.)

With this in mind, how do you focus on raising the value of traditional female roles without accepting the patriarchy as something inescapable?

 

[BeigePalladin]

Well most of those heavily muscled guys aren't they strong either, those muscles are just for show, and a lot of them are useless muscles that only get in the way when it comes to fighting. Well, admittedly, I'm just talking out of my ass here, that pretty much just comes from a manga I read, but I imagine it's not far off the truth.

While there is certainly some truth to this, I would avoid using martal arts manga as serious research material. They tend to take certain... artistic liberties, to put it mildly.

Not as much as most people think about being a warrior; Lean, taunt muscle gives one stamina, whereas those huge, bodybuilder ones give raw power. The first is more useful for someone who wants to b an effctive warrior, as you need to be able to keep going, and in many cases stamina will win out in a real battle over power (dog-fight, howver, the power end will win mostly) - hence why soldiers' training regime is designed to build lean muscle and defined frame, rather than being bodybuildrs.

Then there's the fact full bodybuilder muscles are too big for the human frame to move properly, which is never good for much mor than weightlifting and/or looking good when oiled.