god

[fleamailman]

the goblin turned up, and then explained "...in life, there is only this journey to self here, that you can know of for sure, in that, some people will talk about lots of things that make sense attaching still more things they will then ask you to believe in, even as far as to offer you an eternal reward or punishment depending on whether you accept their given line as the truth about your afterlife...", somehow the goblin knew that the next bit was harder but he continued "...so imagine the first of two choices, that you accepted their argument to its full, and did exactly as told to because that reward or punishment that was coming later, now what would that tell you about yourself and how base you are then, simply your actions would be based on self-advantage here, something like taking out a mortgage on heaven perhaps, every good action you did would be some contribution towards that mortgage then, wouldn't it...", so the goblin just offered the second choice by saying "...now imagine the other choice, that all your actions good or bad were based on your own judgment of them, no expectation, nor reward nor punishment here, just you knowing yourself by what you do, well if you can imagine these two choices clearly then, and can still choose the latter of the two, thus defying any notion of god, or the devil and anything else for that matter, saying "I do not look to reward in my actions, the actions are the reward in themselves", then for an eternity you could hold you head up high and look your maker in the eye, saying "well, you may not like my choices but at least I was, as honest to them then, as I am to you now"..."

51

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

How would one prove non-existence?

As someone else said, evidence for the non-existence of deities is lack of evidence for the existence of deities. The onus is not on skeptics to disprove an outlandish idea; claims such 'there is a god' should require substantial evidence, or else people could say 'I believe in unicorns, how can you prove they don't exist?'... Well, we can't prove they don't exist, but there isn't any evidence for it. And to offer visions, dreams, or experience of miracles as evidence won't do either. I'm certain that some people think they've seen unicorns before, but it doesn't mean they did.

@BlackDragon: As you said, it's not like reasoning will change anyones opinion... but I'm curious as to what these miracles were? Were they impossible for science to explain? I'm not sure if you're talking about something magical, or something very fortunate (and entirely possible).

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

One can't. c: That's the fun part. Although I guess one could argue the proof of non-existence is that we don't have proof of existence, but that's just confusing.

I like to think that the mystery will be solved when I die somewhere along the road, whether I go to heaven or hell or simply cease to exist, there will be an answer. Well, I think so anyway, but for now it's unknowable.

The general behavior we undertake in our day-to-day lives is that if a proposition is unsupported by evidence, we provisionally reject it and go on about our lives as if the proposition is false. "Provisionally" means that we're open to new evidence that could change our minds.

For example, if someone tells me that the Bermuda Triangle has a higher incidence of mysterious naval/aircraft disappearances than other similar regions around the world, then I will look at the evidence, see that there is no evidence that supports this claim, and reject it.

Or, more simply, if someone tells me there's still pizza in the fridge, and I look in the fridge and see no pizza, I'm going to reject the proposition that there is pizza in the fridge and behave as if there is no pizza in the fridge, no matter how insistent that other person is that there's still pizza in there.

Propositions about the existence of deities aren't any different than propositions about the existence of pizza. Someone claims they exist; they try to provide evidence; and it's up to each of us to weigh that evidence and decide if it's convincing enough to provisionally accept that claim. To me, so far, the evidence isn't even close to convincing. Everything in the universe is so far explained best by a simple set of physical laws. The universe itself has no explanation, but that's okay; I'm not planning on creating a universe any time soon, so I don't really need to know where it came from.

The main problem with us humans is that we're all subject to cognitive biases. Not all of us suffer from all of them, and a given human doesn't always suffer from a given bias on every subject, or even to the same degree all the time. Bob might be more rational about politics on Tuesday than he was on Monday, for some reason.

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

Benjamin Clayborne put it way better than I did, so erm.. what he said.

 

[fleamailman]

("...he's saying that people who see ghosts do see those ghost then, whereas people who don't see those ghosts don't see them then, and that trying to prove the existence of those ghost to those who don't see them is as futile as trying to prove that those ghosts are not seen to those who see them, that's all I guess..." mentioned the goblin, adding "...so now, do ghost exist, perhaps the answer is that ghost exists only to those who know them, and are believed in or disbelieved in by those who don't know then...", at which point the goblin was thinking about his own existence on the internet now, saying "...odd, that we don't exist here either now, we're merely projected personas made up from typed words on one's screen, so can I have a slice of that pizza now, who cares if it exists as long as it's edible...")

 

[Devor]

To me, so far, the evidence isn't even close to convincing. Everything in the universe is so far explained best by a simple set of physical laws.

I want to ask you something, and you don't have to answer, and I won't question your answer unless invited to, and that goes for anyone who wants to jump in. But when you boil down the human experience, the only real observable evidence, in my opinion, is your own sense of self. Even your senses can lie to you; if that's all we had to rely upon, we really could be locked in some kind of matrix, being fed false information by a sensitive computer (or worse). But we have a consciousness which we know from experience can seem to choose even to conflict with our own inner instincts. How do you reconcile your own sense of self with your larger belief system?

To be clear, I'm not making an argument of any kind, only asking a question. I do not mean to suggest in any way that there's a particular way that the question should be answered. I just find that it's a challenging and interesting question to ask at times.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I want to ask you something, and you don't have to answer, and I won't question your answer unless invited to, and that goes for anyone who wants to jump in.

Bring it on. You needn't worry about upsetting me.

But when you boil down the human experience, the only real observable evidence, in my opinion, is your own sense of self. Even your senses can lie to you; if that's all we had to rely upon, we really could be locked in some kind of matrix, being fed false information by a sensitive computer (or worse). But we have a consciousness which we know from experience can seem to choose even to conflict with our own inner instincts. How do you reconcile your own sense of self with your larger belief system?

To be clear, I'm not making an argument of any kind, only asking a question. I do not mean to suggest in any way that there's a particular way that the question should be answered. I just find that it's a challenging and interesting question to ask at times.

This is solipsism, in a nutshell: How can anyone know that anything exists except their own mind? And it's a perfectly reasonable question. Yes, it's entirely possible that I'm hallucinating all of this.

The simple answer is that solipsism, even if the only thing that can be objectively categorized as true, conflicts with what we want. What we want (most of us) is to make sense of the world, to live life, actualize our potential, yadda yadda. If you accept solipsism, then there is no reason for you to ever do anything. And yet you will want to do things, and so you have to either force yourself to do nothing (and die of thirst in a few days), or ignore solipsism and engage in the apparently-real external world.

For all practical purposes, the world appears to exist, and is objectively real, and obeys laws, and things happen... I could choose to ignore all that and believe that only my mind exists, but why would I want to? You could argue "Well, you're just ignoring reality/logic," but if my mind is the only thing that exists, then I can do whatever the hell I want. Who's going to argue with me, when I'm the only person here?

So either solipsism is correct, and only my mind exists, and therefore I can do whatever I want (namely, pretend the external world is objectively real); or solipsism is wrong, the external world is objectively real, and I'll continue going about my day the way I always have been. In practice, I end up being much happier and more fulfilled when I ignore solipsism.

 

[The Blue Lotus]

LOL Sidekick,

I would never change for someone else.

I started a course in theology after my first marriage blew up.

Left alone with my son I had questions, lots of them. Having spent 8 years doing my bit as worker/wife/daughter/friend etc. I found that not only did I no longer believe a single word of what my religious leader had to say, but I no longer felt I had a clue.


Mind you the reasons are as complex as I am, but in a nut shell I went to our church for help in dealing with all the crap in my life at what was already a hard time. The Answer I got was if I had been a better Worker/wife/daughter/sister/mother/friend etc than the problems would not have come up in the first place.



Sure, perhaps that comforts some people, but it enraged me, to the point where I swore off that church forever.

However, I found another one in our small town... But, I no longer had faith in myself, or the God I had clung to in times of need.



I won't bore everyone with the details, suffice it to say that I had a conversation with a teacher in college whom said something along the lines of "If you don't believe in something, at least believe in yourself."



Having lost faith in everything including myself. These words were exactly what I needed to hear.



I signed up for a comparative religion class to find out exactly what I did believe in-- deep down.



3 years later I walked away with a certificate of course work completion, and a new found point of view.

I started researching religions of all types, deeper than the overview of dogma that the course was comprised of, the more I learned about my chosen religion the more I realized it echoed everything I had always though way deep down in bottom of my heart.



I remember the first time I went to temple. It brought tears to my eyes. Not a clue why.

Just one of those things, the Pandit walked up handed me a tissue and said that "Anyone moved by just entering the building indeed had found their way home."



About 3 yrs later I met my husband. He is Hindu by birth, but does not practice in any way. Which is fine by me, everyone is different.



So what is right for me, is not going to be right for Sue down the street. However people who profess a religious stance but don't understand their religion, or preach one thing and turn around and do exactly the opposite irritate me endlessly.



I feel blessed to have found the answers I was looking for.

But even I will admit that I do not adhere to some teachings because to me they make little sense.



Religion when we strip away everything else is a message of Hope, Love, and Peace.

Sadly, we humans have added, changed, and spun all sorts of extras to the original message, leaving the masses blind, hopelessly confused, and willing to fight with one another over something we do not fully understand.



At best Us humans contemplating God is very much like Chipmunks doing quantum physics. >.>



We are never going to know for sure, at least until we die.

I died twice, and I still know nothing... so even that is not a given IMHO.



What I do know for sure is that Energy which is what we all are, can not be created or destroyed, we live on in some way even if there is no heaven.



Where does our energy go? Does it leak into the ground to be used by plants? Thus continuing the cycle of life?

Perhaps.

I'd like to think so. I don't think we get born and reborn over and over like some people do. At least not in the same way. Being reborn as a flower is rather a nice thought. Flowers feed bees who have more baby bees, which get eaten by birds, birds are eaten by cats, cats by dogs, dogs, by Coyotes, etc etc.

That to me is reincarnation. I suppose it is possible I am wrong, but I’m ok with that too. Because I can't understand a "God" who would be angry that I at least made an honest attempt at understanding.



The people who claim Hell waits for others who do not hold these same beliefs baffle me. If God is all loving, it stands to reason S/He/they could care less what name we call them by.


Edit: As a little girl, I used to think we were all puppets in some sick demented child's play.
Death was when he got tired of toying with us and stuffed us in a shoe box and stored us under his bed. *Silly I know*

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

The Answer I got was if I had been a better Worker/wife/daughter/sister/mother/friend etc than the problems would not have come up in the first place.

I don't know anyone who finds blaming the victim helpful. You were right to be enraged by this, and to distance yourself from those who said that.

Religion when we strip away everything else is a message of Hope, Love, and Peace.

True. My stance on respecting other religions is if your religious practices don't involve human sacrifice, we're good.

Like you, I don't believe that God would punish people for picking the wrong religion. We have so many to choose from and no way of proving that any is 100% correct.



@Black Dragon, @Cosmo,
I've also experienced a miracle or three. The most deeply personal was a near-death experience which involved a selfless prayer during what could have been my final moment on Earth. It's a long story, so I'll spare everyone... but it's one of those things where nothing happened that was scientifically impossible, but I can't call the experience anything less than miraculous. It's not as close as a living person can get to "proof* of the divine," but it's as close as I've ever gotten.

*(I mean proof for myself, not proof for others.)

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

@Legendary Sidekick: A miracle is something that can not be explained by natural or scientific means, and so is attributed to a magical or spiritual force of some kind. Your definition of 'miraculous' is actually the definition of 'very fortunate', which as you acknowledged, is entirely possible without divine intervention. I'm really not sure why anyone could possibly take that as evidence of a higher power.

 

[fleamailman]

("...so what if god did or didn't exist then, and how would that change any of you decisions now, I mean do you really need some heavenly reward and punishment towards your actions at this point, where those actions become the reward or the punishment in themselves..." mentioned the goblin as if knowing that god's existence didn't change his journey to self here, explaining "...you can't know yourself without making yourself self accountable, god and the afterlife are not simply an excuse for you not doing your homework about the merit of your own actions...")

"...simply, you and I are anonymous, the number of posts, the hit rate, and all the other paraphernalia which goes up to create any member on a site actually means nothing because nothing can be proved here, nothing except the fact that I am writing this and you are reading it..." said the goblin whose goal remained to know himself from what he posted, adding "...you can't know the future, there is no way to know it because it is not here yet, but perhaps one can know oneself, because oneself is here all the time..."

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[Legendary Sidekick]

@Legendary Sidekick: A miracle is something that can not be explained by natural or scientific means, and so is attributed to a magical or spiritual force of some kind. Your definition of 'miraculous' is actually the definition of 'very fortunate', which as you acknowledged, is entirely possible without divine intervention. I'm really not sure why anyone could possibly take that as evidence of a higher power.

To be fair, I didn't actually tell the story. I'm not sure that it's something I'll ever share outside of a face-to-face conversation.

I have a feeling that if you knew the full story, our conversation would be similar to the one between Samuel Jackson and John Travolta in Pulp Fiction (when Jackson's character interpreted the bullets missing him as divine intervention).



@Flea Mailman,

My beliefs do have an effect on how I act. For example, I believe there is an afterlife. I don't worry about Heaven or Hell, but I mean that my wife is truly my soulmate. God forbid I outlive her while I'm still healthy, I will not remarry. (I'm a pretty good predictor of how I would behave in situations I didn't expect to find myself in, so yes, I am certain of this.) We'll be reunited after death.

And if I'm wrong about the whole immortal soul thing, well... at least the skeptics won't be able to give me "I told you so."

That said, I don't claim a moral high ground over an athiest who has his/her own reasons to be "a good person," treats others as he/she wants to be treated, etc.

 

[fleamailman]

("...I am gnostic, I am not allowed the luxury of belief, I simply know god without knowing what I know, becoming my homework perhaps..." replied the goblin, adding "...where are those things you love if not within your heart at this point, so by this logic then, when one dies those that one loves will still be there then forever...")

"...ah yes, that word faith again, but you don't know do you, so what do you actually really know mortals, that you are here, yes, and that your journey to self, journey to death too, is evident, simply all around you now is indisputable as your dailylife is it not, and you could say that you are just the sum total of the trappings of your dailylife here..." mentioned the goblin, thinking dailylife as one's age, how one looks in the mirror, status, money in the bank, etc., continuing "...but me, I know that I am more than that because I keep facing this slot trying to make posts, not as some religion but as a counter-conditioning process towards dailylife, so that, after a while, I just see myself from what I post...", the goblin paused, then concluded "...look, "knowing" is all you can go on, and yes you can make pacts with the faiths, just as you can accept the trappings of this dailylife as its total too, and even amass those trinkets of the moneygod if you like, but in the end you'll still be asking yourself "where am I in all this", won't you mortal, because believing is accepting faith in place of truth because you have been told to do so, or because it is written as such somewhere, where in fact your sole duty is to know, so that your journey to self is simply "to know for yourself" now, not faith then, gnostics don't believe in god, they know him, but they don't know what it is they actually know, hence the journey to self then, but they still know it much like you and I would know death here, yet few go around saying they believe in death, death is just there for those who know it..."

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[Johnny Cosmo]

To be fair, I didn't actually tell the story. I'm not sure that it's something I'll ever share outside of a face-to-face conversation.

I have a feeling that if you knew the full story, our conversation would be similar to the one between Samuel Jackson and John Travolta in Pulp Fiction (when Jackson's character interpreted the bullets missing him as divine intervention).

No, but you did acknowledge it as possible. I'm sure things similar to what happened in that Pulp Fiction scene have happened quite a few times, but only those who are predisposed to believe in religion (such as Samuel Jacksons character) would ever interpret it as divine intervention. So really, your kind of miracle is still not evidence, in any way. Obviously you are entitled to believe it, but going back to what Black Dragon said about changing peoples opinions - you probably know that even if you explained it (and it was indeed amazing), I wouldn't view it as divine intervention.

The only real 'problem' I have with this (apart from the fact that I just can't believe it), is that why do you assume some divine power is willing to intervene in your affairs, but not in the affairs of dying children in Africa? The terminally ill? Or even me? Why doesn't a higher power show itself to me so that I can take up religion and save myself from hell (or it's equivalent?)? After all, I can't help being an atheist.

That said, I don't claim a moral high ground over an athiest who has his/her own reasons to be "a good person," treats others as he/she wants to be treated, etc.

But this is the main point for me; you don't need faith to have morality. Viewpoints on morality factor heavily into how I get along with people. So I agree with this stance heartily.

 

[Telcontar]

I remember what it was like to believe in god, so I generally go for a 'live and let believe' attitude with religion. It was once put to me to say whether I believed anyone who believed in a god was deluded - I had said I don't look down on people with religion, and was being challenged that in fact I DO look down on them.

My answer was yes. I think people who believe in god are deluded. However, the caveat is I think everyone is deluded about something, to some extent. It's part of the human condition - we believe what we want to believe, and even profound skeptics will fall prey to this at some points. It's hard to scrutinize every aspect of your life with a critical eye. Some things you just take for granted, until they are brought to your attention. Then you reveal your character with whether you cling to a mistaken belief or are able to discard it. I, sadly, have done both at times, though I struggle to always be rational.

Furthermore, my opinion is that with more years and with the steady advance of scientific knowledge, religion may eventually be a pretty uncommon thing. I doubt it will ever be extinguished entirely, but we're already seeing that the non-believers are increasing rapidly in number. Also, one of the fastest ways to make someone cling to their beliefs - regardless of evidence - is to attack those beliefs.

But this is the main point for me; you don't need faith to have morality.

Very much so. The statement "people without religion have no morals" is one of the fastest roads to ticking me off. I also do a vast amount of thinking on morality. It is an important theme in a lot of my writing.

Edit: Also, can I just say I find it wonderful that this conversation has been basically civil and even? This is one of the subjects most likely to inflame passions. Kudos to us all!

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

Very much so. The statement "people without religion have no morals" is one of the fastest roads to ticking me off. I also do a vast amount of thinking on morality. It is an important theme in a lot of my writing.

And to add: assuming that morals require religion is assuming that without religion, believers would also be without morals. So, if the only thing making you 'good' is the fear of a god, or the fear of going to a hell, then you're not really being good at all.

 

[The Blue Lotus]

Someone ( I don't recall the posters name sorry ) asked about miracles.

Everyday is a small miracle, I see one in the eyes of children, in the setting sun, in a rainbow.
Even the passing on of humans is; in it of its self a miracle. All the systems beginning to shut down, Cells stop dividing etc.

Birth is, in my book at least, the biggest miracle of all. Watching a new life come into the world. Knowing how and why does not make much difference really. What is the real miracle in all that is how mother nature gets it just right. The options that nature can chose from are staggering at best, how does one cell become two and two become a trillion? How does everything get directed, eyes here, nose there etc etc?


Just my personal take on it all. But then again I always did try to find the pot of gold, the silver lining, and I love my rose colored glasses! Well I supposed if I were to be 100% honest they are purple tinted but... you get the point.

Edit: I think that people need to have something to belive in, be it a higher power or science. It is something that we can connect to, it grounds us when all else fails.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

why do you assume some divine power is willing to intervene in your affairs

A question I asked myself as soon as I discovered that my lungs ceased to function. I couldn't move a limb, my head, my mouth--anything--and I knew that, in that situation, sleep meant death. An adrenaline surge caused time to stop from my perspective. A lot was going through my head I didn't think I deserved special treatment; my selfless prayer wasn't that I be spared. It was that I either fall asleep (I was about to from suffocation) and die, or somehow get out of the mess I was in (unable to jolt myself awake) so I could fight the illness (pneumonia). I didn't want to fight a losing battle, knowing that "instant" death (I was ill for weeks, but had only been in the hospital for an hour) would be easier on my parents if I was going to die anyway.

After the prayer, my eyes opened. I did not make a mental effort to open my eyes. It just happened right after the prayer. ~90 minutes later, I found myself dozing off again and used my eyes to force myself awake. (Knowing that was all I could do in that situation was the difference between life and death.) The expert flown in from Russia and everyone else said my body was too far gone to recover, but my parents and I went through that week unafraid. We all knew I would survive, and doctors were shocked by my parents' fearlessness. The expert dismissed them as fools who "just don't get it."

Whether or not I'm deluded makes no difference if I'm wrong. If there's no God, no soul, no afterlife, then my beliefs just give me a reason not to fear death and being wrong is inconsequential since in that case, death would mean ceasing to experience or perceive.


Also, the beliefs that my wife and I share have undoubtedly saved the life of our first born. When a doctor told us our daughter would have birth defects, which included a dwarfish deformation and low I.Q., we refused to have her tested. Why stick a needle into the womb if we're morally opposed to aborting our own child? Friend of ours, who were expecting a child to be born in the same week as us, chose to abort after hearing similar news from their doctor.

My first born is tall for her age (90th percentile) and I won't get into specifics about her intelligence--you really don't want a father to start bragging about his daughter, especially when there's much to brag about.


Getting back to your question:

I cannot answer why a divine force would intervene in the affairs of a mortal. I do not expect to convert an atheist with this story, just as I do not expect to make an atheist question his beliefs by asking how life or the Universe could have been created without a Creator. This question can't be satisfactorily answered by a religious person either; the concept of something (living or non-) having no beginning is impossible for the human mind to fathom.


I completely agree with Telcontor’s philosophy, "Live and let believe."

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

I completely agree with Telcontor’s philosophy, "Live and let believe."

I agree too, up to a certain point (though I won't get into the damage caused by certain religions). I'm not meaning to drag this on; I know I can't change anyone's opinion, so this is just my own curiosity into other's beliefs.

My previous point wasn't as to why a god would intervene in mortal affairs, but as to why a god would choose to intervene with a particular persons affairs, because it implies that we are prioritised by the higher power. If I were to believe in a god, I still wouldn't believe in miracles.

It's similar to when an actress or model thanks God for an award. How arrogant of them to believe that God is on their side, that God had anything to do with them winning. Granted, believing that you have experienced a miracle isn't what I'd call 'actively arrogant', but it does require the assumption that you are a higher priority than a starving, disease riddled child of a third-world country (amongst others far less fortunate).

 

[fleamailman]

("...well said..." went the goblin feeling that between the sheep of blind belief and those mules of stubborn disbelief were those who questioned till their arrival at self, adding "...why be followers in christ when you can be a leader in christ, belief is shortchange for knowledge, knock and he may enter, yes but one still has to knock on the door of doubt to be sure...")

something within the goblin always feared all that they call organized religion for the fact that it was organized, and thus trying to organize one too, saying "...how often do I feel that organized religion is an excuse not to find out for oneself then, and that one's connection to within, to that which has always been there too, is just ignored because of this compliant towing of the given external line each time, so no, I won't believe in, nor go somewhere closer, nor pay something towards, anything outside of me now, when you and I know it to be just there within oneself without those preconditions then..."

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