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god

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by rajatworld, Jan 8, 2012.

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  1. I do too. Unfortunately, too many believers (and, alas, a few atheists) go out of their way to try to force their beliefs on others. That's when I start doing my Incredible Hulk impression.
     
  2. Reaver

    Reaver Kwisatz Haderach Moderator

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    clayborne smash!!!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
  3. The Blue Lotus

    The Blue Lotus Auror

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    Awwww ! :D How freaking cute! you have some very lucky children SideKick!


    Oh and as a side note, perhaps you were saved by comitting a selfless act? If not that than by sheer force of will you are still here. :)

    In either case you have good karma kiddo, may be be blessed always.
     
  4. The Grey Sage

    The Grey Sage Troubadour

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    I am a firm Christian myself, and love to discuss my beliefs with others, but I don't try to force the issue with anyone. I believe the issue of the so called forcing of beliefs by other Christians is because they are concerned and eager to try and spread the Gospel. Unfortuantely there are many negative emotions towards the church, and that saddens me greatly. I would love to discuss my beliefs if anyone asks.
     
  5. The Blue Lotus

    The Blue Lotus Auror

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    I'm asking... what do you believe exactly?
     
  6. You would not believe how much I have to spend on purple shorts.
     
  7. Reaver

    Reaver Kwisatz Haderach Moderator

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    A small fortune, I would wager. Have you considered investing in stretch pants? They're the boon to millions of obese people and the occasional gamma-ray-powered super hero. Have been for decades. Check out 1,000s of New Clearance Items at REI - Save Up to 50% › Men's › Men's Pants › Men's Running Pants/Tights :D
     
  8. Neurosis

    Neurosis Minstrel

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    I believe thoroughly and completely that there is no God. Although to offer a littler juxtaposition to this, I shall copy and paste something I once wrote:

    Having said all this I still think there is an argument for a God, although perhaps not in the way most would conceive of. You need to understand I use the term God very loosely. I mean by it some sort of higher intelligence. Not a power or "being". Let me explain. We know that the human brain is made of billions of neurons, none of which are touching. They are separate, yet communicating. Furthermore there are many regions of the brain that process specific groups of things; for example the precentral gyrus is known for motor initiation and somatic mapping, Broca's area is important for hand gestures and motor control in speech - etc. The point is this; the brain has many disparate functions, but where does it all come together? At what place does it become consciousness, the fundamental "I"? The best answer modern Neuroscience has been able to come up with may not please you, nevertheless it is that the mere processing of data as a unit, gives rise to the experience of a conscience, and the idea of the ego, the me, whatever you want to call it. Simply put, the facets create the whole without need of a singularity or convergence point. Given this assumption think on this: if all our brains are separate and are processing "as a whole" the same reality (which minor Einsteinian differences, but lets ignore these as they are inconsequential) does that mean that our collective intelligence would give rise to a higher conscience? Are we collectively all a "God"? Personally I think there would be nothing more fitting than this. The universe created us from star-stuff, intricate patterns built up over time, through chance and oppertunity and error we came to be. And now, in the very act of arguing the existence of a God, in trying to validate out own ephemeral and entirely unprovable existence we create "God". Not a benevolent creator, nor a wicked dictator, but instead whatever we are, our collective thoughts and dreams.

    Perhaps we are the raw material that evolved to form this higher consciousness. Much like our own cells - maybe - if they could think they might think they are an individual in a great community, when really they are only the units that make up our existence. First there was mere RNA, the beginning of a great tree of evolution. Then came cells that housed the newly altered form of RNA known as DNA. Then these cells made up organisms, and now perhaps organisms make up something else. Why can these "millions of years of evolution" not progress towards another level of intelligence? Of course I don't actually believe any of this, and I certainly wouldn't waste my time trying to prove it, I am just trying to make people think. Its more of a verbose and bombastic troll (I can't think of a better word) than anything else. Still, its a nice thought.

    I have, however, strayed away from science, and into half supported speculation. But if that is not the fuel of Philosophy, I don't know what is.
     
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  9. mythique890

    mythique890 Sage

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    I believe in God. I know there are horrible, unfair things that happen, but just because we can't see the reason doesn't mean there isn't one. I believe that we're here to gain experience and grow as people so we can become more like God like our children grow up to be adults. My not-quite two-year-old would love to eat candy and drink juice for every meal, and I'm sure she can't fathom why on earth I won't let her. If she could talk to her peers, maybe they'd all talk about how unfair it is that the adults won't let them eat candy and drink juice all the time because it makes them feel good. I know why I can't let her do it, even though it's great in the short run, it would be devastating to her in the long run (cavities, obesity, diabetes, general health, etc.) but I can't possibly explain my reasoning to her because she isn't capable of understanding. It's a simple metaphor for the "God must be cruel/uncaring" argument, but it's the best way I can explain.

    For me, my belief is comforting. I know I'm not alone when I'm in my darkest places. Also, like some PP's have said, when it comes down to it, whether I disappear after this life or end up in my vision of the afterlife, I'll have lived a decent life. I could have done it without religion, but I like what I believe. I feel it's logical and beautiful and helps me to understand and deal with things I couldn't otherwise.

    I hear a lot of talk about how people who have religion believe in fairy tales, but I came across an interesting quote about atheism today. "The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing exploded for no reason, creating everything. Then everything rearranged itself for no reason whatsoever into self-replicating bits that became dinosaurs." Of course this isn't an accurate representation, but it highlighted the fact that what seems ridiculous and what doesn't is really all in how you word things.
     
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  10. True, but without any way to determine whether such a reason exists, why is it reasonable to claim that it does? If someone tells me there's an invisible teapot orbiting Mars, I'm not going to be swayed when they say that I can't prove it's not there.

    It's an interesting metaphor; the problem with it is that eventually the two-year old grows up and learns to understand all the reasons why Mommy did the things she did. It doesn't really analogize to the deity situation, unless dying is the equivalent of growing up... but as far as we can tell, brain activity stops and your body decomposes once you die, so I'm not sure exactly how dying is supposed to teach you something.

    I get the metaphor, I'm just not sure where phase is where we "grow up" and learn to understand all the things that a deity supposedly is trying to teach us. Unless there isn't one, which brings us back to the problem of how do we even know this is happening in the first place?

    Sure, and there's nothing wrong with that. Some people need that belief in order to make it along; others don't. As long as no one tries to justify changing social policy based on their religious beliefs.

    It seems to me that the only thing that quote demonstrates is that there are people out there who don't have any idea what atheists believe. :)
     
  11. Johnny Cosmo

    Johnny Cosmo Inkling

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    I don't believe nothing happened to nothing for no reason. And I don't believe it just 'created everything' that rearranged itself for no reason into self-replicating bits that became dinosaurs. When you put it so simply and inaccurately, you can make anything sound outlandish.

    Except that when we don't allow our children candy and juice for each meal, we're not causing them starve or contract disease, nor eventually killing them after a life of only suffering. Plus, why couldn't an omnipotent god have given us the power to comprehend his actions? It almost sounds like he's trying to deceive and manipulate us into not believing in him, then getting really mad at us for exercising the gift of free-will.

    It's cool that is comforts you, but I don't really see that as a point of discussion. Whether or not a belief is comforting has no effect on whether it is true, but we won't go into that. It might be beautiful (if we turn a blind eye to all the suffering, all the imperfection, and all the problems in the world), but science and evolutionism is beautiful and elegant in it's own way. It's also logical, as the theory is based on evidence. As with the 'miracles' debate earlier, I think your definition of 'logical' is misguided.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
  12. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    I made this comment last night, and then I deleted it. But now I'll make it again: Do we have to confront each other about our beliefs? We were invited to share. Just let it be that.

    There should be a rule going forward of one post per person.
     
  13. Johnny Cosmo

    Johnny Cosmo Inkling

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    The discussion is on-topic and not out of hand, no one is name calling, so I don't see the problem. As the recent thread on conflict suggested, I don't think we should be scared of debate as long as it doesn't degenerate into mindless or offensive argument. From what I can tell, no one is getting angry, or intentionally insulting.

    And one post per person, per thread? That wouldn't be much of a discussion...
     
  14. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    But why does it have to be a discussion? Nobody asked, "Hey what do you think of my beliefs?" Nobody has tried to convince you of anything, so why should now two people feel compelled to challenge mythique890's post? It isn't necessary. That's not the makings for a friendly atmosphere. That's the kind of stuff that makes religion so difficult to talk about openly. People just don't know how to talk about it without having to feel confrontational or defensive or put off, and people don't want to feel that way.

    I've had many, many conversations with people of different faiths, and most of them were genuinely fun. But that doesn't happen unless people take a genuine interest in learning what others believe instead of confronting each other.
     
  15. The Blue Lotus

    The Blue Lotus Auror

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    Who is to say anyone is right? We could all even with the wide sampeling of view points here be dead wrong.

    There may be pearled gates and angels with wings waiting for us, or there could just be nothing at all.

    I don't really see why it would matter where in the spectrum one falls, if what they think gives them hope and comfort then so be it.

    I have had the joy of having this conversation with many rational people who could sit and talk with out attacking many a times. *not that anyone is attacking anyone else here mind you* However, it could descend into that quickly so let us all proceed with caution.

    What if, and mind you this is pure speculation...

    What if, Heaven and Hell do exist, what if GOD does too? Does that not stand to reason that perhaps purgatory is also going to be real?

    If that were true, one could come to the conclusion that Earth may in fact be purgatory. A place to make amends, as well as learn before being allowed to attain a higher understanding. Which would answer why we are not able to prove or disprove, it would also make sense that "God" is less likely to intercept problems. As His/Her/Their assistance would only come after you have learned what you were sent to learn.

    Again just speculation, but I do think that if God is real there is a reason we were not "built" to understand. I however can not bring myself to think that an altruistic being would first make humans, while leaving them totally unprepared and unequipped to do what he wants or needs. It makes more sense that "God" Either is a true God and has not a care for us, or we have yet to learn what was intended and as such God is unable to enter with his full power as of yet.

    I do know that if we were not sent here simply to learn specific lessons than an all loving God makes little sense because as so many have pointed out life is a box of brown something but it surely isn’t chocolates!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
  16. Johnny Cosmo

    Johnny Cosmo Inkling

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    Because that's what a forum is best suited for.
    We (I assume you mean Benjamin Clayborne too) haven't attacked anyone on a personal level; we have used the forum to express our views, taking into account previous posts. Why is it that religion gets special treatment? Why are opinions on politics, sports, music and literature open for debate but religion is not?

    You don't have to participate if the mere thought of religious debate offends or annoys you, but you shouldn't expect people to respect the opinion that religious debate is forbidden territory. And honestly, I don't sense this 'bad atmosphere' at all. We're a community of creatives, we should thrive on this sort of discussion.

    Edit: And just to add - I'm not sure why you feel inclined to come to the 'defence' of another user as if they are incapable of discussing it themselves (which I'm certain is not the case).
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
  17. Telcontar

    Telcontar Staff Moderator

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    A bunch of people posting their own beliefs about anything without the chance for discussion is far-and-away less interesting than having that AND discussion. The conversation so far has been even-handed and civil from all involved. I do not see why you wish to end that, Devor.

    I have a strong dislike for the 'God has a reason for everything' or 'God has a plan' line of thought. Allowing millions, even billions of people to suffer and die for any reason is evil. Any god who would do it is no god I'd worship. I'm not going to worship something out of fear, or out of awe at its power. It's going to have to earn my respect...
     
  18. The thing that occurred to me several years ago is that "God's plan" appears to be indistinguishable from random chance. If I try to envision what a world would look like that was governed only by the cold laws of physics, I get the world we already live in.
     
  19. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    You guys strongly give the impression that you need to prove others wrong. Belief systems are often quite complex and rooted in one's identity; it would be extremely difficult to defend or justify many of them adequately within the confines of a few forum posts. So I don't understand why those beliefs need to be challenged and put down. There are plenty of others, with beliefs similar to your own, who will undoubtedly share their thoughts as well. Give them that chance.
     
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