Help - trying to avoid seeming racist and cliche simultaneously

[Demesnedenoir]

Realistically, being meek and accepting of a situation is often spot on, but still, someone will be offended. Bigger question, do you give a crap? And for my money, that's the start of a good character arc. I mean, if folks can be offended by the word niggardly... well, the limits are boundless.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Who is the target audience for this story? In fiction currently, agents are asking for (actually, BEGGING for) diversity in characters. However, what they're really interested in is portrayals of POC or LGBT characters who run through a story WITHOUT having to send a social message to society.

Personally, I wouldn't be very interested in this concept you're exploring, not because I'm turned off by slavery, etc. but because there's no real way to write the story you're pitching without having some level of investment in the rightness or wrongness of slavery in general, and more importantly, issues surrounding race and what it means to be of a particular race.

Put it this way, if a character of mixed race will cause a stir in this story because of that fact alone...it MUST be addressed somewhere. That's what turns me off. Now you've taken a story about a POC doing something related to a plot, and the focus is pointed toward race as an issue. Which isn't racist, but it will raise questions about what race means, etc. in THIS story.

I'm writing a world that is all mixed race. There never existed colonialism, slavery, etc. and I'm really excited to write diverse characters in a world devoid of racism or prejudice based on those issues that unfortunately exist in our world. Also, sexuality isn't an issue in my world. People are free to love who they want, and while my MCs are both young and straight (or undecided), their father figure is gay and while it's mentioned, there exists no "issue" over that fact.

So...I think I really understand how you want to write a diverse culture world where inter-racial relationships are the norm for one person and not the norm for the other, but this is a fine line to walk. Again, who is going to pay to read this story? Who is it aimed at? POC who want to see MCs that look like them and don't have to deal with racial prejudices of our own world? White readers who enjoy fantasy worlds based on our real world, but with magic and time/ space travel? This is tricky, for sure. If I were gay, I might tire of reading about gay characters in stories, where they must fight for their right to love a person of their chosen gender.

I simply don't see a way to write this story with the alt-Earth reality of a future that includes slavery and racial oppression without talking about that in the story. It might necessitate devoting a large chunk of the story into exploring racial issues, and for that, I don't think I would be interested in reading it. And I wonder who else would opt out based on similar feelings.

To further expound on the problematic nature of broaching the subject of slavery in modern fiction, I'm reminded of what several agents have said on their blogs and "want lists", which is to say in short, that they aren't looking for books which explore the rightness or wrongness of racial issues (including slavery) or sexuality issues, but that the simply want to see diverse characters treated with respect and featured in a story where they aren't portrayed in situations where race or sexuality issues are one of the main obstacles they must overcome.

Just something to keep in mind as you continue to work on this. Figure out who your target audience is and what they're looking to read.

Bast wishes!

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I very strongly recommend a blog called Writing with Color as a resource, which I have a posted a thread about below.

https://mythicscribes.com/forums/writing-resources/12738-writing-color.html

They are closed to new questions right now, but their archives are a treasure trove of information. I would also strongly recommend finding what's called a "sensitivity reader" to beta read for you, and I would follow their recommendations. A sensitivity reader is someone of the group you're writing about who can offer insights and impressions to help strengthen your work and assist you in avoiding the pitfalls of stereotyping, misrepresenting, and bad tropes.

 

[Chessie]

No--

I'm going to go against the grain here. OP: write the story that's pressing on you, stick true to your artistic vision, and have faith in your work. NO ONE else is going to have faith in your work besides you. Honestly? I wouldn't have asked this question here. I don't believe in sensitivity readers. I don't believe in censorship of ideas or artistic expression. Sure, you don't want to be a total dick either but if you want to tackle social/racial issues in your work that are historically accurate (or at least accurate by definition in your made up world), then why ask the rest of us what we think when we're not in your target audience?

You're writing historical fantasy, which is a nice sub-genre of fantasy that seems to do well. I've read some of these books and they are not shy about tackling social issues. Racism is a touchy subject, but if you're writing in a world where slavery is okay....

Has anyone heard of Kushiel's Dart? Like, come on! Talk about social issues and racism! It's a fantasy classic (OP, check it out if you're interested).

Don't ask us what we think, we're not in your audience. Sorry. But, read other historical fantasy books, engage with that audience via social media, learn what they expect in their books. Your story idea sounds well and you can execute it right if you study the audience you're writing for. Please, ask people who really read in your genre so that you please THEM not US because we're not them!

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

My question is, is Kia a POV character? If she is that gives you a whole range of things to play with as you contrast her thoughts about a particular situation compared with her actions. For example she may be too scared / feel too powerless to protest a certain situation eg the punishing of a fellow slave and so acts meek, but still in her heart knows the wrongness of the act. If she's not POV you have to try and show this sort of thing through dialog / diaries etc, and that to me often feels forced.

Another thing that I think you've not mentioned is what sort of slavery. I mean we're all conditioned to think of slavery as violent repression - and it has been that. But in some societies it was less so. For example ancient Egypt, slavery was an accepted position in society. That doesn't mean it wasn't sometimes violent oppression. Just that the way people viewed it was anything but the way that we as twenty first century liberals would view it.

Extending a little on from that, how does the system work. Can a slave become free? What's the justification for it - because there always is one? Are slaves / dark skinned people considered as less intelligent? Savages? Are they being "raised" to be better "more Christian" souls?

I think if you get into these questions, you can start to dig out some more detail about your MC.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[FifthView]

If I were gay, I might tire of reading about gay characters in stories, where they must fight for their right to love a person of their chosen gender.

See, this is an odd thing for me. I've read lots of gay fantasy romance, or simply novels that happen to feature gay characters in fantasy settings that weren't, strictly speaking, romances, and a lot of them include a culture in which being gay is taboo--and if the writing and story are good, this doesn't bother me, as a gay man.

The thing is, it's recognizable. I can certainly sympathize with the characters' situations.

As an author, I've sometimes felt a slight irritation when I stop to consider how easy that is. Instant recognition, plenty of built-in conflict and obstacles...I sometimes wonder if this represents a failure of imagination or an author simply going with an easy substructure. But if the writing and story are good, I enjoy the novel carefree with respect to that issue.

I've also read stories that were set in worlds more like your own, where gay relationships are a non-issue in the world or were even celebrated, and I liked those too. Maybe if only the first type existed and not this type, I'd grow tired of it, but that's not the case.

I simply don't see a way to write this story with the alt-Earth reality of a future that includes slavery and racial oppression without talking about that in the story. It might necessitate devoting a large chunk of the story into exploring racial issues, and for that, I don't think I would be interested in reading it. And I wonder who else would opt out based on similar feelings.

Our modern culture puts a lot of emphasis on "issues narratives." I.e., living in societies with democratic institutions, free speech and free press, and online outlets for our memes (Twitter, comment sections), we are quite accustomed to thinking about things in terms of issues. When we feel something can be done about a problem, we naturally talk it out (or argue, buy ads, print propaganda, whatever) because we feel we can accomplish something by doing these things (correctly or incorrectly, heh: an open question sometimes.)

A different type of society might promote a different kind of sensibility. I do think that characters living in a homophobic culture or a culture that preserves the institution of slavery will have thoughts about these things, but these thoughts may not be posed in the form of "issues" per se. Even if some character in a novel is more of an intellectual and would-be activist, and might be more prone to think in terms of issues, a great many others may not. Instead, a character might be thinking about how he wants his freedom, wants to find his son or daughter who was bought by a different master, or how he's going to be able to get on in the world loving his same-sex partner.

A modern reader is going to bring a modern sensibility and will probably think in terms of issues--but in most cases, the reader is already going to be aware of the various sides of an issue like homophobia or slavery! In other words, the writer can show various results of homophobia or slavery--the way these shape the world--but without dwelling on it as an "issue" too much or spending large portions of chapters having characters debate the issues.

I don't know precisely what Trick wants to do with this character Kia. From the sounds of it, she's on an arc from being relatively oblivious of "issues" to, later in the book, thinking very much in terms of the issue of slavery. Wender's initial appearance in her life will cause some confusion; but a lot of what takes place early in her arc could be handled without much debate over the issue of slavery. Early on, Trick could show the effects of slavery, have Kia affected by various effects and react to them to give us a foreshadowing, perhaps, of her later "activist" (or merely, active) engagement with the issue, and show us how her alt-Earth works, without directly addressing the issue of slavery as an issue. Readers will quickly recognize the issues, already.

There's a great Writing Excuses podcast on using issues in stories. My biggest take-away: "the difference between an issues story and a polemic is that issue stories raise questions and polemics answer them."

 

[Trick]

So...I think I really understand how you want to write a diverse culture world where inter-racial relationships are the norm for one person and not the norm for the other, but this is a fine line to walk.

It's funny, but I don't want to write a book about diverse culture and explore the differences between racial equality and slavery as its adverse. Honestly, I want to write a story about characters who magically travel between different alternate earths (and can travel within each planet as well, kind of like jumper) and these characters just birthed themselves. Once I decided that Wender's world broke away in Egyptian times and then had the magical ability to instantly travel anywhere thrown in, it just seemed like a logical recipe for a slow mixture of all races, eliminating the concept of race to a certain point.

Then Kia just came to me - I knew she would be a young girl at the beginning of outlining but that was it. Once I got to developing her character plot, I pictured her and she was black and living as a slave - that simple. I don't really plan that kind of thing, it just happens. Of course, the dichotomy of worlds occurred to me as something that had to be addressed and that's the reason for the post. I'm really hoping that I'll only need to show her world for what it is, then she escapes it and gets to see how, in other places, all of the things she hates in her world are all but eliminated in some others. She learns a lot. If she goes back to help fix her world's problems later, well... it would have to naturally occur because I'm not aiming for that right now. I just don't want to do injustice to her character or unnecessarily offend people through ignorance.

You're writing historical fantasy, which is a nice sub-genre of fantasy that seems to do well. I've read some of these books and they are not shy about tackling social issues. Racism is a touchy subject, but if you're writing in a world where slavery is okay....

Has anyone heard of Kushiel's Dart? Like, come on! Talk about social issues and racism! It's a fantasy classic (OP, check it out if you're interested).

Don't ask us what we think, we're not in your audience. Sorry. But, read other historical fantasy books, engage with that audience via social media, learn what they expect in their books. Your story idea sounds well and you can execute it right if you study the audience you're writing for. Please, ask people who really read in your genre so that you please THEM not US because we're not them!

See, this seems to be a source of a disagreement or confusion, I'm not writing a historical fantasy. I'm writing a science fantasy that has thousands of little alternate history fantasies inside of it - at least, that's how I see it. Wender's world, the most prominently featured in the story, is nothing like the Earth we know. They don't even call it Earth, they call it Centrum.

And I don't think of this as writing in a world where slavery is okay, I think of it as one world among many where a major injustice has yet to be corrected. It influences one of my main characters' personalities and I want to write that the best that I can.

Hi,

My question is, is Kia a POV character? If she is that gives you a whole range of things to play with as you contrast her thoughts about a particular situation compared with her actions. For example she may be too scared / feel too powerless to protest a certain situation eg the punishing of a fellow slave and so acts meek, but still in her heart knows the wrongness of the act. If she's not POV you have to try and show this sort of thing through dialog / diaries etc, and that to me often feels forced.

Another thing that I think you've not mentioned is what sort of slavery. I mean we're all conditioned to think of slavery as violent repression - and it has been that. But in some societies it was less so. For example ancient Egypt, slavery was an accepted position in society. That doesn't mean it wasn't sometimes violent oppression. Just that the way people viewed it was anything but the way that we as twenty first century liberals would view it.

Extending a little on from that, how does the system work. Can a slave become free? What's the justification for it - because there always is one? Are slaves / dark skinned people considered as less intelligent? Savages? Are they being "raised" to be better "more Christian" souls?

I think if you get into these questions, you can start to dig out some more detail about your MC.

Cheers, Greg.

That's a good question. She wasn't originally going to be a POV character but as the plot sort of bowed down out of her way in my mind, I knew she had to be one. I do plan to use this to show who she is but that's where I'm lost. Is she afraid, in a logical way, of being hurt or of getting others hurt, so she acts meek, but she really is just waiting for an opportunity to strike out without consequences? Maybe. This feels like something a teenager would do: believe a time will come when they can make a difference without consequences. I'm developing off of Devor's suggestion about being meek in public but being a crusader against slavery in secret (only I'm having this be her mother and having her learn of it). I'll see where that path takes me.

As for the kind of slavery, I see it as the natural progression from the actual slavery in America - because that's what it is chronologically. So, it's still very bad but perhaps more efficient in that it might be governed by more detailed laws concerning the treatment of slaves. But it would not be an accepted class by all, it would be slaves viewed as sub-human by many and the dissenters are in the minority.

I don't know precisely what Trick wants to do with this character Kia. From the sounds of it, she's on an arc from being relatively oblivious of "issues" to, later in the book, thinking very much in terms of the issue of slavery. Wender's initial appearance in her life will cause some confusion; but a lot of what takes place early in her arc could be handled without much debate over the issue of slavery. Early on, Trick could show the effects of slavery, have Kia affected by various effects and react to them to give us a foreshadowing, perhaps, of her later "activist" (or merely, active) engagement with the issue, and show us how her alt-Earth works, without directly addressing the issue of slavery as an issue. Readers will quickly recognize the issues, already.

There's a great Writing Excuses podcast on using issues in stories. My biggest take-away: "the difference between an issues story and a polemic is that issue stories raise questions and polemics answer them."

Thank you for your wonderful post. I think you came at the question more as I intended. The only thing I want the "issue" of slavery to serve as is part of Kia's personality development. If it grows into something more as I write, I'll go with that. But this book isn't about slavery. It's about Wender and Kia and how Wender breaks the rules for her and she becomes a force for good in the universe because of it. Now, if I can do that without putting my foot in my mouth, I'll be happy.

 

[Chessie]

Ok...well it sounded to me like the book was about slavery so I apologize for responding in an unhelpful way. I don't have anything else to add besides good luck!

 

[ascanius]

Ok first I find the writing with color site little more than a socjus writers dogma, to be consumed and followed with no critical though. My opinion, others may disagree but that is how I have found it.

Second. Writing a story that has slavery in it doesn't make you a racist, no matter how you portray it. Actions are what count not what you say. The term racist has been thrown around and it's definition reduced to self serving double think that it has little true value as an insult. Seriously ' a system of oppression', somehow a single person can be and entire system, the socjus def is asinine. Your not racist if the story has slavery, your not racist if you do a bad job in it's portrayal, nor that of black characters. At most incompetent, at least simply human who makes mistakes but not racist.

Third have you ever thought that maybe this character has no grand heroic disire to rebel against the oppressors. Maybe she simply wants her her mother has, a family, simple life, being meek and doing what she can to change things in little ways. Think of it, she has food, shelter, her family, and relative safety so long as she obeys the rules. Why risk that all for the unknown, to be hunted, punished, go hungry and live in a constant state of fear. Many talk, yet when action is needed few rise to the fight and we remember and honor them because they are the exception. Like Deme said meek is realistic.

So maybe she has no grand aspirations, maybe she wants the simple things in life, and maybe she is willing to endure hardship to have them.

One of my MCs is similar she has no grand aspirations, she can fight, excel in magic etc. Yet she is never on the front lines, she isn't party to the intruige, she has no interest in leaving her mark yet she is the stone upon which every other character is built, remove her the story is completely different, the others not so much. She is meek, , forgettable, suffers more than any other character yet she endures. Hopefully the reader dismisses her but upon reflection understands, fingers crossed. She is my favorite character, the only character who cannot die, and the most fun to write.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Just to add, it sounds to me that what you're descibing with Kia, is teenage rebellion / growing up. My guess would be that she's meek because her mother has raised her to be meek. So she's been filled with messages like "Don't speak out" "Don't stand up" "You'll just get knocked down". She's probably also seen cases where others have spoken out and been punished. And it has led to a feeling partly of fear, but mostly of powerlessness - her being a girl helps with this narrative. But at the same time this feeling of injustice is growing in her. She wants to do something - but what can she do? She's safe if she keeps her head down and says nothing, but she doesn't accept it as right, while fearing the consequences of her actions to herself and perhaps to her mother - a mother losing her only child.

The question is, what does she do about it? What would you do? Starting / leading an uprising is unlikely. Even if she could do it, the chances of success would be slim - there's a reason why Joan of Arc is so famous - she was one of the few that didn't get instantly killed. So what does her new off world friend offer her? An outside perspective that her world's system is wrong? Maybe, but she already knows this / feels it. Maybe instead he offers her a way out for her and her mother and maybe a few friends? A new homse in another world? Or some tech that can even the playing field?

One other thing, if she does go down the rebel road becoming the bad arse liberator, it won't work out perfectly. In every revolution that has ever happened, those who have been liberated have always struck back in some ways against their former oppressors. It may be reasonably well managed - South Africa - or it may become a complete disaster - Egypt and most of the Arab Spring countries. The problem is that while everyone has sympathy for the oppressed and wants them freed, the fact that they were oppressed does not make them any more saintly than those who oppressed them. People are always people, warts and all, and these people will be angry - as they have a right to be. To add to the woes, when the oppressors feel their grip loosening, they always react one way out of fear - they tighten their grip. What I'm saying is that you aren't going to get a completely happy ending even though it's the right way forward. Maybe that's a life lesson Kia has to learn.

Cheers, Greg.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Trick]

Ok...well it sounded to me like the book was about slavery so I apologize for responding in an unhelpful way. I don't have anything else to add besides good luck!

Oh, your response was helpful, sorry to give the impression otherwise. I very much appreciated the advice to seek out the target audience. My OP was not clear enough and focused so much on the character's experience with slavery that it sort of pinholed the greater plot.

 

[Trick]

Third have you ever thought that maybe this character has no grand heroic disire to rebel against the oppressors. Maybe she simply wants her her mother has, a family, simple life, being meek and doing what she can to change things in little ways. Think of it, she has food, shelter, her family, and relative safety so long as she obeys the rules. Why risk that all for the unknown, to be hunted, punished, go hungry and live in a constant state of fear. Many talk, yet when action is needed few rise to the fight and we remember and honor them because they are the exception. Like Deme said meek is realistic.

Yes, this was basically my initial concept for her. She is meek because her mother has raised her to be this way as a general rule for safety's sake. Perhaps her inner self is strong and as an adult she would have changed her behavior but this story happens before her adulthood. I want to portray her meekness well though and avoid most (since all is impossible) of the negative reactions her character would get. For some, the knee-jerk reaction is, "Oh, so you think all slaves were meek?"

And, of course, no. I know for a fact that is not the case but I can't exactly just put a footnote in the book that says, "BTW, I know that not all slaves were meek." This is why I like Devor's suggestion of an outer meek life and a secret brave life - since Kia is so young, her mother can always tell her to be meek and act publicly meek but then Kia can discover that her mother helps get escaped slaves to Canada, which is very brave. This would put Kia in a pre-adulthood spin and re-align her world view in great ways. It should also avoid the impression that I'm a racist, history-ignorant buffoon (fingers crossed).

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

Trick, I think most of your battle is won already because of your sensitivity to the matter. Have faith in yourself. You can do it!

But listen to your beta readers, as always.