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Help with Physical Power Difference in Gender in a Fantasy Race

Discussion in 'Writing Discussions' started by ShadeZ, Jul 8, 2020.

  1. pmmg

    pmmg Auror

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    Well, while I do think people are ignoring the qualifier of the word 'type' of mental durability, which can be construed to mean just about anything, the second paragraph quoted does paint with a broad brush. I think you would agree that any sample which is small, such as the ones in your experience, may not be a good sample of the whole, and that there are just too many people of many different varieties for a statement like that to be defining. Many males beat themselves up over many stupid things, and many women do not. Of the many differences I might point out between men and women, men handling their instincts well is not one of them.
     
  2. ShadeZ

    ShadeZ Sage

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    As the original post states and as my original question was. The way this race(I'll stick with this) works is their determination increases the actual power by a 2:1 ratio. In other words. The most physically powerful can be beated by the most determined. The question was basically do you guys thing women are more determined than men? Do you think it is the other way around? Do you think it varies based off the individual?
     
  3. ShadeZ

    ShadeZ Sage

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    TYPE of mental durability. In other words, demiduur are constantly fighting and killing statistically men are less likely to feel guilty and quicker to let things go and forgive themselves. The women who are able to pass do extremely well as they are naturals at being demiduur. Also my stat was WAY OFF. I haven't work on this in a while so I'm dusting it off still. The stat is 5:1 m:f.
     
  4. ShadeZ

    ShadeZ Sage

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    Yet I didn't. The mains are 2 boys 3 girls of this race actually come to think of it not 2 I had forgotten one that joins later. The fact their are fewer female demiduur over all doesn't come into play and has nothing to do with my dislike of writing female character in this particular instance. Most of them are over 3000 years old and never seen and therefore gender never documented. There are only 11 of these even mentioned in the books at all, and beside that there are 75 maybe more of unknown gender that are Reldari who have remained hidden among humans.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
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  5. ShadeZ

    ShadeZ Sage

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    As I have explained a few different places the TYPE of mental fortitude is rarer in women than in men. In our world men are less likely to feel guilt and hold grudges and beat themselves up for their actions mentally. Demiduur are fighters and have to be able to think like one (hence the ratio being somewhat in line with modern and old amount of male to female warriors). It would be very hard to be stuck thousands of years fighting if you feel guilty everytime you fight. A human who is becoming a demiduur has to learn to meld with their demiduur's lack of guilt in order to successfully become one among a number of other smaller things. I WAS NOT saying "women are mentally inferior" I was saying they tend to lack particular mental traits which are need as to be demiduur.
     
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  6. pmmg

    pmmg Auror

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    I think that is a very different question. individually, some will be more determined than others, so who's to say which is most on any given day. As a broader group, I would think there would be something one showed more determination at than the other for a number of factors, such as gender roles in society and the expectation placed upon them, cultural concerns that may shape people like education and typical daily chores, physical aspects that shape people, and some degree of disposition towards some sensibilities.

    But...for a quality like determination, other than one group may have many forces that shape them into some manner of more or less of this quality, I dont think there is anything particularly stronger about male determination over female. They can both be pretty determined. I dont know how I would measure which is most. I think anyone can be pretty determined when they decide they have something they want.
     
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  7. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    I’m just going to repeat myself here - whatever the intention or explanation or rationale, just the gut reaction readers will have to this concept is a huuuge distraction to your story, so if that’s not intentional, seriously don’t do it.

    Besides which, did I read right that you’re doing it to avoid writing women? I understand it can be outside your comfort zone at first, and some people are.... a little too far to one edge of the personality curve to understand people from the other edge of it (or whatever), but on the face of it you’re writing women out in a weird way because it’s too hard. I mean, not cool.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  8. ascanius

    ascanius Inkling

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    This reads like attributes for an RPG game, it's odd for a novel. It's like your trying to create the badass female character but rooted in reality, but not. It just makes things very complicated, especially when determination is some so arbitrary and ambiguous. If you think about it determination is a trait anyone who follows through with their goals has. So why are determined females more powerful than determined males? From reading your posts it seems the answer is because they are female. See I'm having trouble understanding why a mental attribute confers a physical advantage. It's like saying x is more intelligent than y so can bench press 2x the weight.

    To answer the question no. women are no more, nor less determined then men. I think this would be one of those things that would be so dependent on upbringing as to be impossible to measure.


    Well I quoted the wrong text, but I did look this up and men are less likely to feel guilt, didn't read the whole study, pay wall. So don't know how valid it is.

    Anyway the text I meant to quote had something to do with men tending to make the moral choice. I just wanted to point out the difference in prison populations with regards to males and females. I think statistically it is safe to say that men tend to make the immoral choice more often compared to women.

    Mostly I agree with devor on this. I also see why some thought it was anti-female, you could have worded things better. That was my impression, I don't think you intended it to come off that way. Good luck.
     
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  9. ShadeZ

    ShadeZ Sage

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    Well there was in this races history elite force of all female demiduur called the Nox Vidia/The Night Huntresses. You do figure out later some of them are still alive and still functioning is areas as undercover dragon slayers. Also my dislike for writing women as I keep saying doesn't come up as the mains team are balanced and for that matter let by a female demiduur who was reared by another female demiduur. But I can see the value in making it slightly more balanced. I will read up on it again. I still doubt it would be fifty fifty but maybe more like 4:1 or 2:1.
     
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  10. Mythopoet

    Mythopoet Auror

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    Is this statement you made inaccurate? Regardless of the MCs, if there are fewer women overall in your narrative you're still making that choice.

    And look, I do believe that it's best to get rid of the idea "men are X and women are Y" in general. It's just limiting. It means that your men have to be X and your women have to be Y or they are wrong or outliers. And this just isn't a good take anymore. You're writing fantasy. Do something more radical, like actually making men and woman equal in all things.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
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  11. CeruleanSpade

    CeruleanSpade Acolyte

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    My question is, if it's not even a factor in your cast, why have the gender ratio of this group be so incredibly skewed? It's a detail that seems unnecessary, going by what you've said about your own intended cast. Also, I can't help but feel like your real world prejudices are going to seep through into your writing pretty badly.

    In any event, men and women don't have "different kinds of determination". What they do have is different kinds of socialization, which determines a lot about how they behave in the world. If your cast of characters, regardless of gender, are the type to be able to survive this transformation process, that kind of implies they have similar socialization and values. IE: it seems like everyone who goes through this process is going to be a warrior to start with, unless you haven't thought through what the qualification process is. While female soldiers may be more rare, I see no reason for them to not get the same kind of training as a man. Maybe, for the sake of your characters and world building, focus on what makes these people qualified for it in the first place rather than asking strange questions that delve deeply into real world sexism. Also, this is a fucking magic world. Why should these transformed people have any difference in strength when they've gone through a magical transformation anyway? (Besides societal roles and traditions which you, the writer, can make up in any way you choose. You don't HAVE to make them be treated differently based on gender. You could just make them treated differently based on the fact that they're transformed creatures.)

    Now, I'm not opposed to sexism in fantasy works, but the way you're asking this question kind of makes it seem like you're trying to excuse/justify it rather than make it a natural part of the setting. You don't have to justify anything you want to include in your story, but you should be aware that you will be paralleling real world sexism because it's impossible not to, particularly with the way you've phrased your questions.
     
  12. ShadeZ

    ShadeZ Sage

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    The original question if you were paying attention was is one gender more determined than the other. I do not care if the question is viewed as sexist as it is not worded that way in the books. The mutation amplifies already present skills. In game where men and women are of equal physical power they create equally powered demiduur.
     
  13. CeruleanSpade

    CeruleanSpade Acolyte

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    I did read the question. The problem is, it's a bad question. Men aren't more determined than women. That's not a gender based trait. Hell, determination isn't even something that a person has to apply to every situation; if they don't care about getting an orange, they can give that up, but be very determined to get a cookie. This kind of thing is about character motivation, not the character's gender. What do your characters want, how badly do they want it? Can your characters learn to want something so hard they can't ever give up? That sounds very anime, but it does seem to be the natural way your fantasy group here would go, if they are literally powered up by determination.

    You also haven't explained what the demiduur ARE, what the purpose of the transformation is, why anyone would want to do this, or do it to someone else. Largely because you yourself don't seem to have decided this. What you have done is given the impression that these are supposed to be magical super soldiers, without actually explaining what their role in this society is. Saying they are a race is very vague, but saying they're created implies that they were created for a specific purpose and you haven't actually told us that useful information. (Also, re-reading your post makes it sound like the demiduur is some kind of a parasite, if it has a mind of its own separate from the human, so what exactly are these people supposed to be for? If that's the case, then it seems pretty natural that at least some people would have an adverse reaction to having something else sharing their headspace.)

    Real life female soldiers aren't exactly opposed to killing the enemy, in situations where they're actually allowed to act in combat roles, so your proposed moral quandary earlier in the thread isn't likely. BUT, if instead of trained soldiers these are just randos they grab because they seem like they'll survive the process, then said moral quandary can apply, but is also just as likely to occur in a man as a woman, because non-soldiers don't exactly go around being emotionally prepared to kill a potential enemy. So, now you have to decide where these demiduur are coming from; soldiers who've passed some kind of qualification for the transformation, or just some sort of elite class deciding that "hey these people might survive the process" and grabbing from all over society. This kind of thing plays greatly into character motivation. This applies to the antagonists just as much as the protagonists. (Also, if raiding is common in your setting, it makes more sense for women to not feel particularly guilty over killing their attackers, just saying.)

    TLDR: Question is bad and can be easily answered by they are a fantasy people and the women can be exactly as strong as you want them to be. And, since you've decided that a character's "Determination" is what decides their power level, they can level that shit up just as high as you want. Don't do any gender dirty by assuming that women somehow want things less or don't have mental fortitude. That is a huge trap to fall into and will only cause you to write terrible female characters. And probably also terrible male characters. Also, you clearly need to iron out the details of what demiduur are and what role they play. ESPECIALLY if they're artificially created from other people.
     
  14. ShadeZ

    ShadeZ Sage

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    They are dragon and monster hunters. Their species were first created when dragons ruled the world by force. There purpose still is protecting the humanoid races from themselves and the dragons. In modern day they are hunted by the Cult of Azear a cult that believe dragons should be the supreme overlords of all and that Nihil the divine dragoness of oblivion should be the ruler of all dragons. Being that the only race able to kill dragons are demiduur and extremely rare humanoid "heroes" the cult hunts demiduur and their families and friends aggressively to try to eradicate them. The demiduur and the dragons aligned against the cult are allies of Nihil's brother the divine dragon of time Mergatroid. Recently the cult also started attacking the kingdoms that refuse to submit to draconic reign. There are dragon which align themselves against the cult but they are often seen as traitors and killed as well.

    Demiduur are humanoids (can be far, elves, giants, dwarves, humans or anything between them) who have undergone tragedy to the point they seek justice in the form of becoming a demiduur, they are adopted as orphans of war and raised by a demiduur parent who is able to assess if they could survive the transformation, or they are powerful warriors who already were battling the cult and learn that demiduur are the enemies of their enemies and thus seek to become them. The demiduur isn't a parasite but during the process the human's mindset does have to learn how to properly fuse with the demiduur mindset. Demiduur do not think like humans and as such any humans that are being transformed slowly beginning to think and act in a less human manner. This leads to the popular superstition in the books that when a person becomes a demiduur the original human no long remains and is replaced by some kind of spirit or other worldly being. This is shown to be untrue though as every demiduur can recall what being human was like and even how they felt about things. Usually the only kinds of people who pick to be demiduur are those very desperate either to get justice or revenge. The top few I can think of off the top of my head are the mcs.

    Zeke is a half human half elf who was adopted by a demiduur named Arik after a dragon ravaged his home and killed his family. When Arik found him he was only 9 years old but was attempting to save the others in the village. Arik admired his will to help even though there was great danger posed to him and adopted him. Having witnessed what a single dragon could do and how many lives it could ruin Zeke became a demiduur with the intent of using the powers produced to protect more people than he could as a human hybrid.

    Keara is a demiduur who originally was a sky elf. She was found by Mergatroid as a three year old toddling around in the forest. Her parents had been killed and butchered by elf hunters as sky elves are very rare and their wing feathers have strong magical properties. Mergatroid discovered all this and brought baby Keara to Viigariheim the home of both Mergatroid and the demiduur. He asked for Ronin the leader of the demiduur and his mate to help him co-parent the baby Keara. Keara grew up with Zeke and the two were thick as thieves even going as far as to track and hunt the raiders which pillaged the nearby villages prior to becoming demiduur. Keara and Zeke became demiduur together resulting in them becoming "demiduur twins". Keara became a demiduur to protect people like her birth family and to protect her new found family from the cult.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  15. Nighty_Knight

    Nighty_Knight Scribe

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    They sound very much like Witchers. From being raised by one who already is one, to surviving the transformation process and becoming a monster hunter. Just to see the differences, what physical changes happen when one becomes a demiduur?
     
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  16. ShadeZ

    ShadeZ Sage

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    They are at least as physically powerful as a dragon. They are known for inhuman thought patterns, their thinking is somewhere between a cat, human, and dragon. They almost never possess magical abilities and are completely immune to magic altogether. They are carnivores, which can also feed off magic energy causing the magical realm to hate them. They have all the generally enhanced powers, they can see emotions and magic with their eyes. Their perception of the world around them especially human thoughts borders on psychic. They have acidic spit, their blood is silver and heals most common wounds and sickness. They can manipulate their bodies in ways that defy magic and physics alike. They can emulate and shapeshift to look like any race. They can copy an accent in 5 minutes of dialog and can learn a new language in 30 minutes. They remember everything in great detail using a "passive memory". They are incredibly tricky to kill, one of the mcs mentions if someone exsanguinated him it would only piss him off, a king threatens to behead him and all the slayer says back is "beheading eh haven't tried that one before".
     
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