How bad is the 'moustache twirling villain' trope like, honestly?

[Naruzeldamaster]

Whenever I see this trope name thrown around, it's almost always done with a negative connotation.
But honestly? I think it can (and has) been done well, and resulted in some otherwise entertaining villains to punch. The Xenoblade series is infamous for having these types of villains, Persona too. Heck, JRPG's in general if I really think about it. Especially the 'mooks' that are meant to be minions of the true bad guy (who usually has a bit more depth)

On one hand, yes, they're predictable and cartoonishly evil for the sake of it.
On the other, give them a little bit of depth and an actual reason for being a villain and they can be pretty entertaining. Hell, give them some swagger/charisma and a decent helping of 'oh he/she absolutely practices their lines in a mirror' energy and they can be as good as other villains.
I will say that the 'obvious' ones are pretty bland/cookie cutter. But with a little bit of TLC (ok a LOT of it) and some good execution I think the trope can be fun.

Sometimes ya want a villain who you want the reader to hate their guts, enjoy punching their teeth in, and kill them off if you need to. I kind of think that as long as you don't go overboard with the 'cartoony' part this trope is perfect for that.

 

[Karlin]

Snidely Whiplash! Snidely Whiplash

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Snidely Whiplash! Snidely Whiplash

I mean yeah, that's the type of character I mean, but I was thinking more modern examples.
Like a lot of JRPG, they end up with us fighting 'god' or some divine being of sorts.
A lot of the time they're cartoonishly evil villains, or they're that 'humans or stupid, time to start over from scratch' trope of god.
I think an honestly legitimately good example is Roman Torchwick in the show RWBY.
He's comically evil, and just wants the world to burn, but the man's got some swagger and some of the most loyal minions I've seen. (They are loyal to him despite his incompetence)

 

[CupofJoe]

I'd put Hans Gruber from Die Hard as a pretty good example of the character.
So is the Sheriff of Nottingham in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.
Okay, maybe it is just Alan Rickman that makes the come to life

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I'd put Hans Gruber from Die Hard as a pretty good example of the character.
So is the Sheriff of Nottingham in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.
Okay, maybe it is just Alan Rickman that makes the come to life

Would King Richard (from the version of robin hood where it's animals) count? He's a pretty comical villain too.

To me a good villain needs three things.
-Swagger/Poise: This can be done a number of ways, but however they do it, they 'own' the room when they enter.
-Loyal mooks: Mooks who aren't confident in their leaders is often a sign of a weak villain in my eyes. Sure, the villain themselves might be incompetent, but they're minions remain loyal because they trust their skills/leadership.
-A good reason to be a villain: again, can be done a number of ways, but it has to be done well. I just roll my eyes when it's something super simple.

 

[Devor]

This is one of those where I think a lot of people would gladly badmouth the trope, but then when you mention examples, you'd start to hear a lot of, "Oh, but that one's different..."

The trope harkens back to villains tying their victims to train tracks and twirling their mustache while giving a monologue. I saw a ted talk (or something?) that explored where the train track thing came from, and the earliest example they could find was already somebody parodying it, and we don't know what they were parodying. It's hysterical to think about. Somebody's villain was so bad that we're still mocking it more than a century later - and yet that person has been totally forgotten. That one must be furiously rolling in his grave.

As for the trope, I think there are plenty of ways to do it effectively. You've just got to find other ways to build depth. I'll mention the Joker as an example, tho I'll skip the recent ones. In the 1960s Romero's Joker was very much this type of villain, extremely campy, twirling fingers instead of a mustache, but still putting victims in elaborate traps that they have time to escape from. But Jack Nicholson's Joker doesn't veer away from that pattern too much - still campy, still a giggling narcissist who likes to monologue, with weird and elaborate plans, but that movie works a lot more. In the darkness of Gotham, the Joker's white clown face is like a spotlight on evil lunacy.

This one character doesn't have to be that deep and complex for the rest of the story to still find worthwhile themes and depth. And as the OP mentioned, it can be very satisfying to defeat that kind of villain, which is nothing to scoff at.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Mustache twirlers have their place. Just ran across this the other day and it looks like a good video. There are a lot of these where this came from.

 

[Finchbearer]

So we are exclusively talking about male villains here.

 

[Devor]

So we are exclusively talking about male villains here.

Trope names generally point to the obvious example, so the mustache twirl doesn't have to be literal.



Edit: TVTropes seems to be using "Dastardly Whiplash" and at one point does say the mustache is important. *shrugs* Still, there tends to be some debate about how close it has to be to count, which is something that I don't see value in.

 

[Ban]

So we are exclusively talking about male villains here.

How backwards. Women can twirl moustaches just as well! They simply tend not to grow their own practice material.

Onto the thread, I don't think there's anything bad about these types of villains, they're just fun to denigrate in the same manner that stereotypical yar-har-har pirates with peglegs and parrots have an innately humorous quality to them. The fact that they can be made fun of, does not diminish the role they serve.

 

[Finchbearer]

It’s not backwards to suggest that this thread is pretty much only talking about a male villain trope. There’s no mention of any female villains here. I’m not here wanting there to be, I’m just interested if that’s what it is - a more masculine trope.

 

[Ban]

It’s not backwards to suggest that this thread is pretty much only talking about a male villain trope. There’s no mention of any female villains here. I’m not here wanting there to be, I’m just interested if that’s what it is - a more masculine trope.

'Twas but a joke I felt obligated to make. The thought of a female villain having a moustached henchman by her side just to twirl a moustache whenever the mood for evil strikes amuses me greatly. I might have to write her.

 

[Finchbearer]

'Twas but a joke I felt obligated to make. The thought of a female villain having a moustached henchman by her side just to twirl a moustache whenever the mood for evil strikes amuses me greatly. I might have to write her.

I did consider that, but, are you telling me that Limburgish humour is dryer than British??

 

[Ban]

I did consider that, but, are you telling me that Limburgish humour is dryer than British??

All of Britain shields us from the Atlantic rain. It's not terribly effective given the weather, but its suitable for maintaining humorous drought.

 

[Finchbearer]

All of Britain shields us from the Atlantic rain. It's not terribly effective given the weather, but its suitable for maintaining humorous drought.

Damn oceanic temperate humour.

 

[pmmg]

Well, in a broader sense, the mustache twirling villain is just a stand in for cliche, out of the box, type of villains. I am sure there are female counter parts. Evil queen step mother should be one.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I think Finch is right, the trope of the mustache twirler is very dude-heavy, but I think I know why. Female characters, regardless of where on the side of good and evil they fall, have to be likeable or else. Audience reactions to unlikable female characters is brutal, and bizarre considering they respond well to unlikable male characters, with or without a Save the Cat moment. So, a female character who's also an antagonist must have redeeming qualities. Them's the rules.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Oddly I just wrote a book with a villain with a stupid oversized moustache! Though it turned out he did have a reason for sprouting it.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Devor]

I think Finch is right, the trope of the mustache twirler is very dude-heavy, but I think I know why. Female characters, regardless of where on the side of good and evil they fall, have to be likeable or else. Audience reactions to unlikable female characters is brutal, and bizarre considering they respond well to unlikable male characters, with or without a Save the Cat moment. So, a female character who's also an antagonist must have redeeming qualities. Them's the rules.

Yeah, I was trying to think of examples and I came to similar thoughts. For example, you could point to Poison Ivy as a villain who is similar to the Joker (not recently, but back in the day). Except she's usually got that touch of sex appeal to go with it, which starts to veer into other tropes. But these tropes are only as useful as the ideas you communicate and the points we want to make, so whether Poison Ivy is or isn't one on a technical level isn't that important.

 

[pmmg]

I think the evil queen from snow white would qualify.