Is this actually a bad idea, or am I just asking the wrong people?

[pmmg]

When I shared the map on a page in reddit, someone complained about having "too many empires" and how them all calling themselves an empire sounded more like a ****-measuring contest.
I had to laugh because he was exactly right, but that was the state of things before WW1, so that's how things are here.

Well...that is understandable. They may be calling themselves that for stupid pride, but...just means the word wont mean anything when they say it.

 

[pmmg]

I would say that for me the map is instantly recognisable -

That being said, I would agree and say that I think your story would probably carry itself better without the map as a visual aid. As long as you’re writing a story that’s an alternate version of what we already know then the reader can imagine how it would look perfectly well without a map.

Maps for a high / classic fantasy novels often work really well because it’s usually a completely fantastical world, and map making and world building in that context therefore can carry itself with visuals added in.

It might be that you simply find referring to the map useful as a visual aid to help with your writing without the need to add it into the book - however, it’s your project so have fun and do what you want with it.

Along these lines. While i can see the benefit, and even purpose, of not including a map, Maps are one of those things I look for in fantasy book. I usually visit the page often. I think they help to grow the appreciation for the story. Which is all to say, I like my map, and will include it.

 

[Marscaleb]

which includes all of France and the Benelux

Benelux. That's a new word for me.

That's one of the reasons why I want people's opinions on the names; a lot of these are ones that I derived from old origins that I thought would be more obscure, but everyone has a different understanding of history. There were names that people thought were obvious that I thought were heavily obscured.

Norles (or Norlandy) took me a bit of effort to devise. I was originally trying to play with the history of Britain, supposing that they had a stronger influence from the Jutes than the Saxons, and I tried playing around with blending the names of the Jutes and Angles. Ultimately I blended the Angles with the Normans to get Norles.
Despite being only one letter off from Normandy, when I look at it on the map it looks to me more like they were named "people of the North" rather than having this crafted alternate history.

I wanted to craft all the names after such levels of care, but there were very few regions where I could identify enough history that I could form a more unique identifier, so I had to... improvise.

Net result: this convoluted mess.

BTW, Iceland may not be as icy as people think when they are children, but that place was named after the cold. TWICE. When it was first discovered it was named "Snowland." Later another explorer found a bunch of icebergs in some fjords and named it "Iceland."
With that in mind, it seems honestly reasonable to me that in both worlds it gets called Iceland. So I'm in a quandary with that place; readers think its lazy and stupid to give it the same name, but if I distinctly change it then I am unrealistically "just trying to make it different."
Likewise with the Black Sea. Every nation calls it their language's equivalent of "Black Sea." It's one of the most uniform names for a region that I've ever seen.
But apparently people are upset about it, (not just you,) so I need to either change it or directly address it in the story.

Curiously, no one is upset that the "North Sea" retains the same name.

 

[Ban]

Benelux. That's a new word for me.

That's one of the reasons why I want people's opinions on the names; a lot of these are ones that I derived from old origins that I thought would be more obscure, but everyone has a different understanding of history. There were names that people thought were obvious that I thought were heavily obscured.

Norles (or Norlandy) took me a bit of effort to devise. I was originally trying to play with the history of Britain, supposing that they had a stronger influence from the Jutes than the Saxons, and I tried playing around with blending the names of the Jutes and Angles. Ultimately I blended the Angles with the Normans to get Norles.
Despite being only one letter off from Normandy, when I look at it on the map it looks to me more like they were named "people of the North" rather than having this crafted alternate history.

I wanted to craft all the names after such levels of care, but there were very few regions where I could identify enough history that I could form a more unique identifier, so I had to... improvise.

Net result: this convoluted mess.

BTW, Iceland may not be as icy as people think when they are children, but that place was named after the cold. TWICE. When it was first discovered it was named "Snowland." Later another explorer found a bunch of icebergs in some fjords and named it "Iceland."
With that in mind, it seems honestly reasonable to me that in both worlds it gets called Iceland. So I'm in a quandary with that place; readers think its lazy and stupid to give it the same name, but if I distinctly change it then I am unrealistically "just trying to make it different."
Likewise with the Black Sea. Every nation calls it their language's equivalent of "Black Sea." It's one of the most uniform names for a region that I've ever seen.
But apparently people are upset about it, (not just you,) so I need to either change it or directly address it in the story.

Curiously, no one is upset that the "North Sea" retains the same name.

Well Norman just means man of the north as well, so it stands to reason that any derivation thereof would have the same connotations. As for the Benelux, it's just the political union of the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. A precursor organisation of the European Union which served as a model to emulate and has continued to exist in a less noticeable, but still present form. It has become a term for the region in general, but is principally a political organisation.

 

[Ban]

I still think consistency is key. With some of these countries you've created a name derived from the real-world but fictionalised, like Magary (Magyarország: Hungary) or Gaullia-Narbon (Bastardised Gaul/Gallia plus the city of Narbonne) and of course the aforementioned Norlandy. These are fine enough, but why must Germany become the Argus empire? Why not call it a bastardized version of Niemcy, Deutschland or Allemania? Those would be in line with the established precedent. If you go this route, apply it across the board. Call Iceland Snowland and the Black Sea the Dark Sea, leave no stone unturned, otherwise it comes across as a bit half-assed (to me at least).

 

[Redfrogcrab]

honestly, an inverted world map is a lil lazy of an idea, but so far your execution of it is really good, so it counter-balances it

 

[Queshire]

Man, all the events that lead up to WWI and later WWII had so many moving parts that don't show up on a map that I'm just wondering how relevant it really is to your goal.

 

[The Dark One]

Right. Likewise, the assumption that stories not shared with alpha readers are bad is also purely assumption.
It's the exact same thing with every creative work. Movies have test screenings. Songs have demos. Games have alpha testers. If someone puts something out there without having someone else review it and give feedback, sure, it could still be good. And people who have been making a thing for a long time usually know what they are doing. But for the rest of us, a second pair of eyes is a godsend.

Sharing a story with specific and targeted betas (as I do) is very different from putting something out on the internet for anyone to see. That's effectively publishing the map/story/song/whatever.

I choose my betas.

No-one can choose who sees their work once it's published online.

Anyway, good luck with it. I get that new writers really need feedback.

 

[Marscaleb]

Man, all the events that lead up to WWI and later WWII had so many moving parts that don't show up on a map that I'm just wondering how relevant it really is to your goal.

And you're right; I am by no means trying to make the map the "only" indicator. But the other events are easy to convey through the story. But I do feel that the map would influence the character, as well as being a tool for the reader to view the character's actions as believable.

Personally, if I found myself in another world that was matching all the political events that led to WW1, I would expect WW1 to happen, but not so much of WW2.
But if I found that even national borders were emulating my history, I might feel differently. The more I see of the world that reflects the history I know, the more I'd expect this history to follow suit. Like there's a certain point where you go past "people are the same everywhere" and go into "this can't just be coincidence."

It's more than just a map, of course, I haven't forgotten that. Map is just the thing we're talking about today.

 

[Marscaleb]

I still think consistency is key. With some of these countries you've created a name derived from the real-world but fictionalised, like Magary (Magyarország: Hungary) or Gaullia-Narbon (Bastardised Gaul/Gallia plus the city of Narbonne) and of course the aforementioned Norlandy. These are fine enough, but why must Germany become the Argus empire? Why not call it a bastardized version of Niemcy, Deutschland or Allemania? Those would be in line with the established precedent. If you go this route, apply it across the board. Call Iceland Snowland and the Black Sea the Dark Sea, leave no stone unturned, otherwise it comes across as a bit half-assed (to me at least).

You're right of course; I need to be consistent. I need to pick a theme/style/convention and just stick with it.

I've been thinking about it, and I would prefer to make all the names have that historical flair; be devolved versions of origins.
But also as I think about it, the problem with that is that everyone is going to have different names that they would recognize. If a person only manages to decode three or so names, those would be the ones they feel are "too on-the-nose."

Of course, if I try to make them completely original, then people are still going to look for similarities, just because the map still looks like Europe. They'd expect something to tie back somehow to the culture they represent, even if it was just in phonetic structure. And if it didn't, well, that would be a lost opportunity.

And if I try to make everything more obviously akin to their real-world counterparts... Well that's the most unimaginative of all, and it certainly doesn't suit a world that is "trying to be a bit different."

I guess there are no easy answers here.

 

[pmmg]

And if I try to make everything more obviously akin to their real-world counterparts... Well that's the most unimaginative of all, and it certainly doesn't suit a world that is "trying to be a bit different."

I guess there are no easy answers here.

Perhaps put the imaginative energy into the story, and leave the map simple so it does not take extra work.

 

[Marscaleb]

Perhaps put the imaginative energy into the story, and leave the map simple so it does not take extra work.

This is in reference to the nations' names, which is part of the story, and manifested frequently.

 

[Marscaleb]

Played around with obfuscating a few names and altering a few coastlines that bugged me.
I don't have a good name for France yet, and they're an important part of the story so I'm gonna give them some more serious thought.
How do these names sound? Is everything (except France) consistent now?

 

[pmmg]

I like Daltos sea better.

 

[skip.knox]

The Black Sea was once the Euxine Sea.

But, more generally, I wonder how you envision all this working. Does your MC work out gradually that the world is flipped? Maybe place name by place name? Is there a scene where she's viewing a map of the continent? I fully see the need for the *author* to have all this worked out and to have a map for convenience. But not so much for the reader.

For example, in the narrative, we have characters who are standing in Rome or some other town in not-Italy. Someone references events in Piros. Is the reader to flip over to your map to work out oh, that's actually Greece plus some other regions? And if Piros is going to be a place where story takes place, you'll make that live through your narrative, and the reader will (presumably) be fascinated by what you've created more than by what you've paralleled.

To come at this from a different angle, once the MC realizes she's in a version of our world and that war is imminent, and that she has the power to stop it, isn't that all that is really needed? You could still flip the map, if you wanted to. Maybe the differences would be enough to persuade her that things don't have to go exactly as they did in her world. But there's a dozen other ways she could come to that realization.

 

[pmmg]

To come at this from a different angle, once the MC realizes she's in a version of our world and that war is imminent, and that she has the power to stop it, isn't that all that is really needed? You could still flip the map, if you wanted to. Maybe the differences would be enough to persuade her that things don't have to go exactly as they did in her world. But there's a dozen other ways she could come to that realization.

She would probably be greatly confused. She calls out, everyone to the Colosseum, and then runs off in completely the opposite direction.

 

[EnterAliasHere]

I was working on the map for my story, and I decided to share my creation on a few sites.
It was not received well; people hated it for reasons I'll get to in a moment.

Before I go on, I want to share some context about my story.
My story follows a person from our world who gets reborn into another world. As she grows up, she discovers some strong similarities between this new world and where our world was just before the first world war. As the war begins, she realizes that it will probably turn out the same way our history did, and so her self-proclaimed purpose is to prevent all the fallout that led to second world war and all the tragedy that came with it.

With that in mind, the map I drew was mostly historical Europe, but also mirrored East-to-West.

But people hated this map.
Now, part of this was because I didn't explain the context properly; I largely implied that it was just a typical fantasy world, and made no effort to explain that the main character was from our world.
But even on the sites where I shared the map with the proper context, I didn't get any favorable responses.

Now, *I* think that having a mirrored world is a great way to approach what I'm trying to do; it makes it clear that it's not some time travel or alt-history shenanigan, but it also can be similar enough that the main character genuinely feels that history could repeat itself. But I'm not seeing that kind of response from people. People seem to think that I need to make it a full-on alt-history, or a fully original world.

I don't like those ideas. If it's an original world, I can't see anyone being willing to put their life on the line to try to prevent WW2. If it's an alt-history, then it just gets weird every time I make something different from our history. Especially since I am adding magic to this world, (and having alt-history-magic-WW1 makes my story a bit too much like a certain other story; one that people will already be comparing mine to.)

But maybe I'm just too close to this to be able to see the problem.
So is it just me? Is this actually a bad idea that will turn people away, people that actually would have loved my story if it had an original map?
Or is the negative response coming from a lack of context, and I'm putting too much weight into the opinions of people who wouldn't read this story anyway?

Can I reasonably have an "alternate world" for my story that lies between alt-history and fantasy? Or will people only accept it if it is one or the other?

where da map?

 

[pmmg]

Like...three posts above...

 

[skip.knox]

FWIW, the map comes through fine on my computer's web browser, but not on my phone.

 

[Marscaleb]

The other night I tried working out a series of names going the other way (making them all historically-inspired) so I could see which I like better.
I'm a bit on the fence about it. I like a lot of these original names better, but narratively I like the idea of there being stronger similarities with out history.
But mostly I'm just left to wonder how people react. I suppose I shouldn't be writing my story for "what other people want," I should make the story I want. But... as a writer, I want other people to enjoy my story; I think that's part of it.

But, more generally, I wonder how you envision all this working. Does your MC work out gradually that the world is flipped? Maybe place name by place name? Is there a scene where she's viewing a map of the continent? I fully see the need for the *author* to have all this worked out and to have a map for convenience. But not so much for the reader.

For example, in the narrative, we have characters who are standing in Rome or some other town in not-Italy. Someone references events in Piros. Is the reader to flip over to your map to work out oh, that's actually Greece plus some other regions? And if Piros is going to be a place where story takes place, you'll make that live through your narrative, and the reader will (presumably) be fascinated by what you've created more than by what you've paralleled.

I actually wrote out a scene where she discovers this, mostly just for fun after I found people getting upset by the map I drew earlier.
When I've got the world's design settled I may go back and alter it to work with said final design; (if I decide to include it in the final story.).

Just for funsies, here's that scene if anyone's interested.
(Some primer to avoid confusion: she was Darren in her original life, but Amber in this one..)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Stonsberg Public Library was in a building about the size of a church, and its stone architecture made it look like a church except for its lack of a steeple. Two nuns led a small group of five orphan children inside and then began rubbing their hands together to help remove the winter chill. The building was well-lit with numerous electric lights connected with metal tubing that had been added a few years ago. There would have been a fair amount of light coming through the windows, but the heavily overcast sky weakened the natural light.

Sophia looked over to the two younger girls in the group. "I've been here before," she proudly announced, "all the fun books are all upstairs!"

Emma reciprocated her enthusiasm, "Let's go there first!"

The youngest child did not seem so amused. "That's fine; you do you."

Sophia began dashing toward the stairs while Emma excitedly followed. Sister Moser called out to them "Wait, don't run inside!" She followed after them with a hustled pace while Niklas and Marvin followed behind her.

Sister Band was about to follow behind the two boys when she saw that the youngest of the children wasn't following the others. This sandy-blonde four-year-old girl remained on the ground floor, carefully pacing around while looking at the shelves. There was something in her demeanor that didn't look quite like the normal wonderment of a child, but almost like she was actually searching for something.

"Amber," Sister Band called out, and the young girl promptly looked back at her, "The children's books are all upstairs."

"I was looking for something," she called back.

Sister Band felt only a little surprised. "What are you looking for?"

Amber walked back in her direction but continued past her. She paced up to one of the librarians standing behind a counter. "Excuse me," Amber stated, "Do you have books... Um, with pictures of places?"

The librarian smiled. "All our picture books are upstairs," she said, "where your friends went."

"No no, um..." Amber shook her head in annoyance. 'Dang it, what is the word for 'map' in this language? I know I've heard it before...' Amber stood in thought for a moment. "A book with land... pages of land?"

After a momentary puzzled look, the librarian lit up. "Oh! You mean an atlas!" She walked out from behind the counter and strode over to a section on the North side of the building where a table sat between two thick bookcases. She quickly perused through a collection of large books and grabbed one that was very tall and wide but not at all thick. "Is this what you're looking for?" She opened the book and flipped through colorful pages of cartography.

"Ah, yes!" Amber replied, smiling for the first time that day. She was excited at the chance to finally get some answers. For one, she wanted to confirm that she was indeed on a different world, and not the victim of some time-travel shenanigans. The new letters and language she was learning suggested that it was a different world, but there was still some uncertainty that she wanted to put to rest.

The librarian began speaking, "I'm afraid you can't take this one home with you, but you can look at it all you want while you are here."

"Is there a page that shows... everything? The world?" Amber continued to smile. Her second (and truer) reason for wanting the map was because she was looking forward to seeing what a different world really looked like.

In her past life, Darren had seen many fictitious and fantasy maps, mostly as part of the role-playing and strategy games he enjoyed. He recalled someone once complaining about crescent-shaped islands in fantasy maps, stating that such formations don't exist anywhere in the real world, despite the fact that they were in so many RPG maps. The complaint spurred a lot of thoughts for Darren; he began to notice many qualities to fantasy maps that made them seem more (or less) realistic than others. But he also realized that there was only one planet people could use for comparison, so why did people have so many ideas of what kind of landmasses and continental configurations were "realistic?" Maybe some formations were reasonable, but just happened to not occur on their planet.

Amber was excited to now be able to see what a real foreign world would look like. 'I hope I get to see a crescent-shaped island. Or maybe there will be some magic floating continent; that would be so cool!' She doubted there would be floating continents, but she couldn't keep herself from hoping anyway.

The librarian smiled and walked over to the table, setting the book on the corner. As she opened it back up and began turning the pages she looked over to Sister Band. "She seems to know what she wants." She turned to the first map in the atlas and then spun the book around to face the child. She pointed at one of the landmasses. "This is the Argus Empire; that's where we live."

Amber felt like she was slapped in the face by a truck. Her lips began trembling. She placed her fingers over her mouth in utter shock.

The librarian looked back at the nun. "Where is she from, anyway? Is she looking for a map of her home?"

Sister Band shook her head. "No, she's lived at the orphanage ever since the week she was born."

The librarian's face turned somewhat skeptical. "Really? But she has such an accent...?"

Sister Band raised her hands as if to shrug. "I know, but we don't know where she gets it from. She's always been different from the other children."

But Amber didn't hear a word of their conversation. Her attention was focused clearly on the map, and she stared at it in disbelief. 'It can't be... It just can't be...'

But it was. The map looked identical to the one Darren had seen his whole first life, except backwards. Mirrored, to be precise. The West was in the East, and the East was in the West. But at the same time, it was also... wrong. Many shapes and coastlines seemed slightly off. Was there an error in the printing?

(Continued in next post)