How would one describe a queen with heavy Egyptian influence without stepping into derogatory?

[Jdailey1991]

For example, I have read that comparing her skin color to food would count as "derogatory". How would I describe someone like that OTHER THAN that?

 

[Rosemary Tea]

How does she have heavy Egyptian influence? What about her is Egyptian? Do you mean modern Egyptian, or do you mean ancient, as in back in the time of the pharoahs, Egyptian?

 

[piperofyork]

That's curious...if you said, "her skin was the color of an old hamburger," I could see the derision. "Caramel" might be too objectifying. But "olive-skinned" seems fairly innocent to me. What color are you going for?

 

[Mad Swede]

Well, surely this depends on your setting. If the Mediterranean exists in your setting then you could simply describe them as coming from the south eastern part of the area - that defines their skin colour, without defining it if you see what I mean. If you have a secondary world then you could simply say that someone comes from an area and leave the reader to work it out from the geographical location of wherever. Mind you, you then need a map or some description of where that place is relative to where the main characters are. But if you really feel you must describe their skin colour then you may find yourself using an expression like olive-skinned - and it isn't usually seen as derogatory.

 

[Chasejxyz]

Is anyone who's giving feedback here not-white? Or has ever listened to someone who isn't white give them feedback on something like this? Because it's easy for a white person to say "well I don't see how being compared to an olive is objectifying" because they've never had to constantly read about their skin being the color of mayonnaise in pretty much every book ever.

This is a good page you should check out, it has a ton of words, colors etc. The entire blog is also really good for things to keep in mind when you're writing PoC.

 

[Mad Swede]

Is anyone who's giving feedback here not-white? Or has ever listened to someone who isn't white give them feedback on something like this? Because it's easy for a white person to say "well I don't see how being compared to an olive is objectifying" because they've never had to constantly read about their skin being the color of mayonnaise in pretty much every book ever.

This is a good page you should check out, it has a ton of words, colors etc. The entire blog is also really good for things to keep in mind when you're writing PoC.

Well, this is why I suggested referring to a geographical area and letting the reader draw their own conclusions.

There is a potential problem here, and that lies in describing how people react when they meet someone from a place far away. If the new person does have a different skin colour, how will the character seeing them describe it? Obviously, they'll use something in their own reference frame, and that will be the colour of something. It could be food, cloth, wood or something else. The other character will do the same thing, from their own point of view. As writers, this is something we need to handle - IF NECCESARY. But the first thing I'd ask is if we really need to describe skin colour.

 

[Jdailey1991]

How does she have heavy Egyptian influence? What about her is Egyptian? Do you mean modern Egyptian, or do you mean ancient, as in back in the time of the pharoahs, Egyptian?

The latter.

 

[Jdailey1991]

That's curious...if you said, "her skin was the color of an old hamburger," I could see the derision. "Caramel" might be too objectifying. But "olive-skinned" seems fairly innocent to me. What color are you going for?

After googling that term up, it seems to be what I was looking for. But then there is the other feature--the eyes. Looking at one in particular--the Queen Nefertari portrayed in the 2005 Discovery Channel program Rameses: Wrath of God or Man?--her eyestyle looked exotic to me, but "exotic" is definitely nebulous, as it doesn't have a set, concrete definition, and it could be derogatory, too.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

. Looking at one in particular--the Queen Nefertari portrayed in the 2005 Discovery Channel program Rameses: Wrath of God or Man?--her eyestyle looked exotic to me, but "exotic" is definitely nebulous, as it doesn't have a set, concrete definition, and it could be derogatory, too.

So how would you describe her eyestyle without using the word exotic?

Shape? Color? Was she wearing eye makeup? All that can be described without stereotyping.

For that matter, you can use a phrase such as "doe-like eyes" to convey a certain look. As long as it doesn't have an association with racist tropes or othering, it should be okay. (I'd stay away from "almond shaped eyes" because it does have an association with othering. And "slit eyes." But "cat like eyes" may be fine.)

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Maybe I’ve never looked at the right olive, but it always seemed a bit off for the color of skin, heh heh. Then again, I’m not white, some parts of me are a bit crackerish, from plain square to ritz depending on the sun I get that month, pinkish, maybe a tad boiled lobster some days, maybe even a little watermelon spread on a cracker? Salmon? Tuna? Hmmm. Olive is a color as well as a fruit (here’s a heads up, not all olives are the same color, but the color olive is typically fairly similar to the color olive, so if referring to an olive instead of the color, olive, you’re just not all that informed on olives). In fact, I prefer Kalamata olives. Some people do have olive-shaped eyes, just a fact. Some people have narrow eyes, some have big eyes, bug eyes, squinty eyes (me!) etc etc. I was often asked as a kid if I was part Chinese, probably because I squint a lot in the sun and my last name is Rice… Funny that, although it actually comes from Royce and is English. More funny because my wife and I adopted two Chinese girls, oh how the oldest loved it when she knew enough English to understand her name, LOL. If you’ve been to China you’ll also note that cliche eye description don’t hold up well. Both of my daughters have different eyes, and friends from the same province have different eyes still. The bad part is that such details are damned near impossible to describe, so I don’t really bother outside of basics.

I think one of the few references to skin color I made was in character when referring to a man as being “attractive in a pasty-white kind of way.” For the most part, I tend to try to describe skin in simple terms and apply some general premise to a particular culture. As a secondary world, they don’t have the artificial construct of “race” even though they note differences in skin tone. Humans know a human when they see one, unless of course it’s another being in disguise, heh heh.

But anyhow, eye colors I tend to match with gem stones or simply state the color. If you happen to be Boborun and are offended by having eyes the color of yellow topaz, I can’t help you. Man, I’d love to have topaz eyes!

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Maybe I’ve never looked at the right olive, but it always seemed a bit off for the color of skin, heh heh.

"Olive skin" is a reference to the color of the bark of the olive tree. Not the fruit. Olive trees have a very pale brown bark.

 

[Jdailey1991]

"Olive skin" is a reference to the color of the bark of the olive tree. Not the fruit. Olive trees have a very pale brown bark.

You know, that makes more sense now.

 

[Chasejxyz]

Well, this is why I suggested referring to a geographical area and letting the reader draw their own conclusions.

There is a potential problem here, and that lies in describing how people react when they meet someone from a place far away. If the new person does have a different skin colour, how will the character seeing them describe it? Obviously, they'll use something in their own reference frame, and that will be the colour of something. It could be food, cloth, wood or something else. The other character will do the same thing, from their own point of view. As writers, this is something we need to handle - IF NECCESARY. But the first thing I'd ask is if we really need to describe skin colour.

You kind of have to if it's important. People are going to assume that your English-language book has white characters, and all characters are white unless explicitly stated otherwise. And even THEN they are going to forget what you said and think they're white. Rue Hunger Games is black, but people lost their minds when she was cast as a black girl in the movies, because so many people envisioned her as white. Because her character was "innocent little girl." And people said "oh so that's a white girl!" and ignored everything in the text saying anything else.

Yes, this does happen because readers are dumb and also racist sometimes. It is also impossible to 100% prevent yourself from being misread. BUT if a good number of people read it that way, then that means you need to fix what you wrote. Yes, Farenheit 451 isn't about censorship, but that's what most people come to the conclusion to when they read it, which means the themes of the book were not conveyed properly. If your character is an ancient queen from a desert country, she's going to be brown, and you're going to have to state that, otherwise a lot of people are going to think she's white if you do not explicitly say so. Just google "Cleopatra," who is portrayed as white a LOT, even though she very much isn't.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Rue Hunger Games is black, but people lost their minds when she was cast as a black girl in the movies, because so many people envisioned her as white. Because her character was "innocent little girl." And people said "oh so that's a white girl!" and ignored everything in the text saying anything else.

And the book did explicitly describe her: thick dark hair, brown skin. It just didn't say "she's black," because its narrator lives in a culture that doesn't have the particular race distinctions that we do. Skin color differences have the same relevance as eye and hair color differences, no more and no less. They aren't a primary defining characteristic.

The book also had Katniss describe herself in a way that doesn't exactly sound like a white girl: olive skin, dark hair. Lots of readers have pointed out that she's more likely mixed race than white. But when they cast the movie, only white actresses were allowed to audition for the part.

If you're writing a fantasy world, it makes sense that the race distinctions we know wouldn't exist there, even if the people are as diverse in physical characteristics as they are in our world. Race is a cultural construct, and a very fluid one at that. The trick is conveying that without breaking character for your world. You can't describe people as black or white while keeping your reader in a world that doesn't define race that way. The conundrum is, if you don't, many readers will read the important characters as white, even if you describe them otherwise.

 

[Mad Swede]

You kind of have to if it's important. People are going to assume that your English-language book has white characters, and all characters are white unless explicitly stated otherwise. And even THEN they are going to forget what you said and think they're white. Rue Hunger Games is black, but people lost their minds when she was cast as a black girl in the movies, because so many people envisioned her as white. Because her character was "innocent little girl." And people said "oh so that's a white girl!" and ignored everything in the text saying anything else.

Yes, this does happen because readers are dumb and also racist sometimes. It is also impossible to 100% prevent yourself from being misread. BUT if a good number of people read it that way, then that means you need to fix what you wrote. Yes, Farenheit 451 isn't about censorship, but that's what most people come to the conclusion to when they read it, which means the themes of the book were not conveyed properly. If your character is an ancient queen from a desert country, she's going to be brown, and you're going to have to state that, otherwise a lot of people are going to think she's white if you do not explicitly say so. Just google "Cleopatra," who is portrayed as white a LOT, even though she very much isn't.

Now I'm going to be a little awkward. And the reason for that is that this is turning into an important and interesting discussion about assumptions.

Why do you, when you read, assume that an English language book has white characters?

Take for example an urban fantasy set in some modern city, written in English. The author doesn't mention skin or hair colour at all, the city and country are never named, and the cover doesn't show any characters. Yes, if you were living in Houston you might assume that the main character is white. But what if you live in Lagos or Mumbai? What do you assume then?

The assumptions we as readers make are based on our own cultural reference frame. In my case, that's northern Sweden. But a reader living elsewhere in the world will have another reference frame and they'll make their assumptions based on that. In our desire to be aware of assumptions and write accordingly, we are ourselves making further assumptions about how our writing might be interpreted. With the example I mentioned above in mind, I suggest that some of those further assumptions are arrogant, patronising and sometimes racist. Not because we intend those assumptions to be that, but because we based them on our own reference frame.

 

[Queshire]

Now I'm going to be a little awkward. And the reason for that is that this is turning into an important and interesting discussion about assumptions.

Why do you, when you read, assume that an English language book has white characters?

Take for example an urban fantasy set in some modern city, written in English. The author doesn't mention skin or hair colour at all, the city and country are never named, and the cover doesn't show any characters. Yes, if you were living in Houston you might assume that the main character is white. But what if you live in Lagos or Mumbai? What do you assume then?

The assumptions we as readers make are based on our own cultural reference frame. In my case, that's northern Sweden. But a reader living elsewhere in the world will have another reference frame and they'll make their assumptions based on that. In our desire to be aware of assumptions and write accordingly, we are ourselves making further assumptions about how our writing might be interpreted. With the example I mentioned above in mind, I suggest that some of those further assumptions are arrogant, patronising and sometimes racist. Not because we intend those assumptions to be that, but because we based them on our own reference frame.

In that case clarification would still be useful for adjusting other people's mistaken assumptions.

 

[Mad Swede]

In that case clarification would still be useful for adjusting other people's mistaken assumptions.

Well, leaving aside the example of the Hunger Games, where that clearly didn't work...

One of the pleasures of reading, even for someone as dyslexic as I am, is to be able to picture things in my minds eye. For me, making things explicit sometimes spoils that part of reading a work of fiction. I'm well aware that this can be a sensitive issue, but it also raises the subject of where we as authors draw the boundary between being explicit and leaving it to the reader to think about. I come back to my original question - do we really need to mention skin colour, or facial shape or hair style? I suggest that in some cases we might need to, but a lot of the time we don't.

 

[Queshire]

Well, leaving aside the example of the Hunger Games, where that clearly didn't work...

One of the pleasures of reading, even for someone as dyslexic as I am, is to be able to picture things in my minds eye. For me, making things explicit sometimes spoils that part of reading a work of fiction. I'm well aware that this can be a sensitive issue, but it also raises the subject of where we as authors draw the boundary between being explicit and leaving it to the reader to think about. I come back to my original question - do we really need to mention skin colour, or facial shape or hair style? I suggest that in some cases we might need to, but a lot of the time we don't.

Aye, I agree. Hell, a lot of the time it's to the writer's benefit. Write just enough that the readers will fill in the rest and they'll do half your work for you.

It's a balancing act though. Inevitably people bring a set of assumptions with them whatever those assumptions might be, and if those assumptions are never challenged... well, then they're never challenged. Things are a bit different for us compared to TV, cartoons or comics since we're not a visual medium. You get stuff like with Rue as a result, but I think it's still something to keep in mind.

 

[pmmg]

The effort we waste catering to other peoples sensibilities. If she has a dark tone to her skin i would compare it too something that she would know of. If you dont want use food use something else. How about her skin was the tone of sand wettened by the nile.

 

[Chasejxyz]

Now I'm going to be a little awkward. And the reason for that is that this is turning into an important and interesting discussion about assumptions.

Why do you, when you read, assume that an English language book has white characters?

Take for example an urban fantasy set in some modern city, written in English. The author doesn't mention skin or hair colour at all, the city and country are never named, and the cover doesn't show any characters. Yes, if you were living in Houston you might assume that the main character is white. But what if you live in Lagos or Mumbai? What do you assume then?

If I was, say, Indian and lived in Mumbai, and I was reading a book written by a white person and it was set in, say, Texas, then I would still probably assume everyone is white. Because the writer is white and the setting is white.

This isn't just me making this up. This is a known phenomenon. Ignoring it will only make your writing weaker.