How would one describe a queen with heavy Egyptian influence without stepping into derogatory?

[Rosemary Tea]

Now I'm going to be a little awkward. And the reason for that is that this is turning into an important and interesting discussion about assumptions.

Why do you, when you read, assume that an English language book has white characters?

Because English language books have a convention of excluding non-white characters, and the exclusion doesn't just, and doesn't even always, mean there aren't any. It comes down to descriptions. Nearly all English language writers mention the race of characters who are not white when describing them ("he was a tall Black man") while not mentioning the race of white characters, just describing their characteristics ("she had red hair and green eyes").

So steeped are we English language readers in that convention that if an author drops the mention of race and just uses other descriptors, we automatically assume the character is white.

Take for example an urban fantasy set in some modern city, written in English. The author doesn't mention skin or hair colour at all, the city and country are never named, and the cover doesn't show any characters. Yes, if you were living in Houston you might assume that the main character is white.

Ironically, Houston's population is barely over half white. If you live there, chances are many of the people you know will not be white. Possibly including yourself.

Several other American cities are similarly mixed, or even more so. In some, the white population is a definite minority, in numbers.

But you would hardly know that based on our media. White people are overrepresented in film, television, and yes, literature too, while everyone else is underrepresented. See the Hunger Games example above. Nothing wrong with Jennifer Lawrence, but when only white actors are allowed to audition for a character who likely wasn't intended to be white to begin with, that's a big erasure.

It's that skewing of the media, I think, that makes us tend to see all characters as white unless we're explicitly told otherwise.

The assumptions we as readers make are based on our own cultural reference frame. In my case, that's northern Sweden. But a reader living elsewhere in the world will have another reference frame and they'll make their assumptions based on that. In our desire to be aware of assumptions and write accordingly, we are ourselves making further assumptions about how our writing might be interpreted. With the example I mentioned above in mind, I suggest that some of those further assumptions are arrogant, patronising and sometimes racist. Not because we intend those assumptions to be that, but because we based them on our own reference frame.

When I was a child, I sometimes pictured Black or Asian people when reading a book where all the characters were white. Usually not for the main characters, because they were nearly always described in a way that made it clear they were white ("blond hair," "blue eyes," "pale complexion," etc.), but characters who weren't described, yes. Why? I lived in a racially mixed community. I had a back of the mind assumption that other communities would look like that too.

But after years of reading books where all the characters were white unless stated otherwise, I unfortunately picked up that convention.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

i think it was one of Sanderson’s books where he figured no one might realize that all the characters were Asian in appearance (whatever that might mean) because he doesn’t explicitly describe them. Having blonds and redheads will also tend to shift skin color expectations, or mentioned above, the environment and culture. In Eve of Snows no one mentions skin color until they meet a blue-skinned people, but it is implicit by hair colors and the northern setting with a superficially viking-like culture. People in the modern world tend to have some grasp of environment and skin color, at least until you have mass migrations to transplant different skin tones to different latitudes.

 

[FifthView]

i think it was one of Sanderson’s books where he figured no one might realize that all the characters were Asian in appearance (whatever that might mean) because he doesn’t explicitly describe them. Having blonds and redheads will also tend to shift skin color expectations, or mentioned above, the environment and culture. In Eve of Snows no one mentions skin color until they meet a blue-skinned people, but it is implicit by hair colors and the northern setting with a superficially viking-like culture. People in the modern world tend to have some grasp of environment and skin color, at least until you have mass migrations to transplant different skin tones to different latitudes.

If I began reading a book in which the only three sentient species had purple, blue, or green skin....I'm almost 100% certain I'd forget these colors while reading the story—unless these differences were referenced often and also correlated with significant cultural and geopolitical differences.

I'm curious to try building such a world. The different ways of describing different shades of blue, different shades of green, different shades of purple and using these shades to communicate subtle differences between individuals is an appealing challenge.

But I suspect also that even frequent mention of these distinctions would sometime not be enough, and I could go stretches in a chapter or two of "forgetting" the colors of a given set of characters, at least until some special note of that is made.

 

[Ankari]

For example, I have read that comparing her skin color to food would count as "derogatory". How would I describe someone like that OTHER THAN that?

What is even the known skin color of ancient Egyptians? If your reference is what is portrayed in the media, you may have already made a mistake in using them as your basis. Please describe your version of ancient Egyptians.

 

[piperofyork]

If noting the skin color is important for the story - and it may not be (?) - you have a good number of options that don't involve food references: sepia, sand, beige, fawn, bronze, marigold, clay, amber, etc.

 

[CupofJoe]

I think very visually and need a face to write to. So I find this site very useful: This Person Does Not Exist *
But unless there is a distinct reason for including a description I try to keep it vague for the reader, but I know what they look like. As an example I have a character [the image generated by This Person Does Not Exist] that has wild pink hair. This I have remarked upon because it is a sign of their little rebellions to the system.
* And yes, some of the people it comes up with are truly comic... That is part of the fun.

 

[Miles Lacey]

There is a very effective way to create a vivid image of a character without using any reference to skin colour whatsoever: their name.

A name can convey much about a person's physical characteristics, ethnicity, socio-economic status and personality if it is chosen well.

 

[pmmg]

What is even the known skin color of ancient Egyptians?

i think there are enough indications from surviving egyptian relics to know the ball park of their skin tone.

 

[Ankari]

i think there are enough indications from surviving egyptian relics to know the ball park of their skin tone.

This thread compelled me do some cursory documentary watching. The skin tone, depending on the era, can vary. According to one documentary, the first conquerors of ancient Egypt arrived from the area around South Sudan, Uganda and Ethiopia. According to one archeologist, the ancient relics with the skin colors depicted on them represented status. The colors ranged from tan, to red, and yellow. I'm curious if we think Egypt had a rainbow spectrum of skin color.

Besides, none of this matters. What Jdailey1991 considers the "right" skin tone matters. Otherwise, we're trying to describe what we see in our heads and not theirs.

 

[TheKillerBs]

Actually, yes. That does sound like a natural phenomenon. People with lightish skin can get really dark under the sun. You can see this in Latinos, in East Asians, and in the Egyptians' own backyard, the Song of Solomon documents it too. The lover says her skin is dark because she's out on the fields too much. So yes, skin colour corresponding to status is perfectly logical.

This thread compelled me do some cursory documentary watching. The skin tone, depending on the era, can vary. According to one documentary, the first conquerors of ancient Egypt arrived from the area around South Sudan, Uganda and Ethiopia. According to one archeologist, the ancient relics with the skin colors depicted on them represented status. The colors ranged from tan, to red, and yellow. I'm curious if we think Egypt had a rainbow spectrum of skin color.

 

[Ankari]

Yes, of course. But red wouldn't be one of them.

 

[TheKillerBs]

It's probably just the dye that most closely resembles the skin tone of a dark-skinned Egyptian

 

[Ankari]

And this highlights the point. No one knows what the early Egyptians looked like. We do a ton of speculation. Probably this, probably that. At the end of the day, we're just using our imagination and reason.

 

[Mad Swede]

Yes, of course. But red wouldn't be one of them.

Red might be one of them. To take a real example. People living in northern Sweden who are outside a lot, whether in summer or winter, pick up a skin colour which is almost mahogany in shade, with very distinct red tones. It isn't just the sun which causes this, its also the effect of the wind and the dryness of the climate.

 

[Mad Swede]

If I was, say, Indian and lived in Mumbai, and I was reading a book written by a white person and it was set in, say, Texas, then I would still probably assume everyone is white. Because the writer is white and the setting is white.

This isn't just me making this up. This is a known phenomenon. Ignoring it will only make your writing weaker.

Ah, now this is where it gets interesting. To take my example further. This is an urban fantasy set in some modern city, written in English. The author doesn't mention skin or hair colour at all, the city and country are never named, and the cover doesn't show any characters.The author appears to have an English name - but how do you know they're white? How do you know the characters portrayed are white?

You're making a lot of assumptions, based on your own perceptions. And they may be very wrong. I have a colleague with a very English name, who speaks and sounds like he comes from Kent, England. Until you meet him in person and hear his laugh. Then you realise he's from Sierra Leone...

So tell me - does your assumption still hold or are you being unintentionally predjudiced?

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I use this and other site a like it A LOT.

Braving Diversity: Intro Post

Writing With Color — Introducing Race & Skin Color Naturally (tumblr.com)

 

[Chasejxyz]

So tell me - does your assumption still hold or are you being unintentionally predjudiced?

I really don't appreciate that you're deflecting my point of "this is a known phenomenon that happens widely in English literature" with "maybe YOU'RE the racist because you're pointing out that racism exists." My own assumptions of the characters/author don't matter, because I am just some guy on a forum. What matters is the assumptions of agents, editors, readers, reviewers etc. That's a very, very wide group of people, and some people will be very open and imagine people of any name as any racial/ethnic background....and some people will still picture Rue as white despite all the in-text descriptions stating otherwise, because she is an "innocent little girl" whose death is tragic and, therefore, has to be white, because only white kids can be pure and innocent. Your job, as the author, is to minimize the latter as much as possible.

 

[Ankari]

Mad Swede and Chasejxyz please refrain from characterizing any participant in this thread as racist. Nothing has been said that warrants such a damning designation. If we can't keep this civil, we will be forced to lock this thread.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Now that’s judgmental and way off base, on top of what Ankari mentioned.

I really don't appreciate that you're deflecting my point of "this is a known phenomenon that happens widely in English literature" with "maybe YOU'RE the racist because you're pointing out that racism exists." My own assumptions of the characters/author don't matter, because I am just some guy on a forum. What matters is the assumptions of agents, editors, readers, reviewers etc. That's a very, very wide group of people, and some people will be very open and imagine people of any name as any racial/ethnic background....and some people will still picture Rue as white despite all the in-text descriptions stating otherwise, because she is an "innocent little girl" whose death is tragic and, therefore, has to be white, because only white kids can be pure and innocent. Your job, as the author, is to minimize the latter as much as possible.

 

[S J Lee]

"Olive skin" is a reference to the color of the bark of the olive tree. Not the fruit. Olive trees have a very pale brown bark.

yes, BUT it could be misunderstood . . . the colour "olive" in wikipedia is actually a green colour - the American helmets in Vietnam were "olive" = nearly GREEN, with a bit of brown ... see --> Olive (color) - Wikipedia

You know what "olive skin" means, and I know too ... but does every reader? If someone "wants" to misunderstand something you write, it is very, very hard to stop them, alas...