How would one describe a queen with heavy Egyptian influence without stepping into derogatory?

[Rosemary Tea]

yes, BUT it could be misunderstood . . . the colour "olive" in wikipedia is actually a green colour - the american helmets in Vietnam were "olive" = olive GREEN with a git of brown ... see --> Olive (color) - Wikipedia

If someone "wants" to misunderstand something you write, it is very, very hard to stop them, alas...

Olive green is a newer use of the term. Possibly invented by Crayola. (I'm not sure if Crayola actually did invent it, or just took a term already in use, but they seem to be the most ubiquitous user of the term).

Olive as in olive skin is much older, and it goes back to a more rural, agricultural time when the average person was much more likely to know from experience what an olive tree looks like.

Olive green may be a reference to the color of the tree's leaves, or it may be a product of modern times, when the average person is much more likely to know what a processed olive looks like than to have any idea what the tree it came from looks like.

Even the Wikipedia article mentions "olive drab" as the older version, the older color of soldiers' uniforms, and it's a reference to a mostly gray/brown color.

 

[Chasejxyz]

Regardless, it's still a vague term because there ARE so many definitions. Older readers might think of brown, like olive tree color, while younger readers might think green or black, like the olives at the olive bar. You can just say "they have brown skin", throw in an adjective like "warm" if you want. There's dozens upon dozens of other words you could use that can say something about the character or be part of your writing style, so why use something vague and cliche like olive?

 

[S J Lee]

As regards - how to describe an ancient Egyptian - WHICH ancient Egyptians? Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear . . . !
This is where we go down a rabbit hole. No, I am not going to assume the colour of the rabbit.
Egypt was there for 1000s of years. Waves of invaders came. The skin colour of all these different waves may have been different.
If there is one thing I have learned, it is that real research is pretty much pointless. Lots of readers who know nothing about a subject except a Discovery channel 5 minute clip they saw 20 years ago - re the Bronze Age, medieval weapons, Homer, Roman legions, Vikings etc - THINK they "know it all" and will tell you to "do your research" ... because your painstaking "real research" feels fake to them! There is nothing you can do but grit your teeth as they lecture you about your ignorance...!

So - any FACTS about ancient Egyptians' appearance? Let's look at the list of options from a few google/Wiki pages--->

Most of them seem sort of reddish brown in their own surviving paintings on their own walls.... but the colour may have changed/decayed/reacted with air or something since those ancient paintings were made? I cannot possibly say....
Yahoo is now a part of Verizon Media


BUT - were there any black Egyptian pharoahs? Surely yes? Especially the 25th dynasty?
Twenty-fifth Dynasty of Egypt - Wikipedia

What about the fifteenth dynasty pharoahs = the Hyksos invaders? Oh, this is getting complicated...
Hyksos - Wikipedia


As for "but she was basically Cleopatra" -- well, her family was all Macedonian Greek, AS FAR AS WE "KNOW" -- but hey, are we 100% sure of who all the mothers were? Or did any mothers "cheat" over the 250 years since Alexander and Ptolemy I? So, was Alexander "white"?
Cleopatra’s true racial background (and does it really matter?) | OUPblog.

I'm afraid every answer you give will be wrong. Just try to write a good book without being rude unless you intended to offend someone?

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I’m not even sure I’ve ever read someone having “olive” skin, (heard it a lot and and read it alot outside of books) but then I don’t really pay that much attention to physical descriptions anyhow when reading. I would’ve assumed a darker brownish olive, but knowing that, I do have an olive tree so it makes since. I am jack’s complete lack of caring on using “olive” to describe skin tone, but in this day and age somebody will be offended by anything, because taking offense is a choice. I am offended by how easily people are offended! Nah, not really, I’m almost impossible to offend.

 

[Ankari]

S J Lee summed up why I found this thread fundamentally flawed. Demesnedenoir Summed up my opinion on this matter.. I;m more surprised by how easily a question by Jdailey1991 devolved into this mucking around the mud and eventual slinging of said mud. Writers really need to stop asking how can they do something and just do it. If a writer has an image in their mind of what a character looks like, then describe it. If a writer doesn't know the background context of the era they chose to write in, then they committed a fundamental flaw and need to address it with research.

 

[pmmg]

The skin tone, depending on the era, can vary.

Sure. But I will just take the short cut and think them similar to they way they are painted in so much art. Why bog down a reader with more than that.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Sure. But I will just take the short cut and think them similar to they way they are painted in so much art. .

Heck, the way they're painted in so much art even tells us how they walked! 100% accurately, of course.

 

[Ankari]

Sure. But I will just take the short cut and think them similar to they way they are painted in so much art. Why bog down a reader with more than that.

As is your right. Just write it well.

 

[Miles Lacey]

The question that was posed by the original poster was "How would one describe a queen with heavy Egyptian influence without stepping into derogatory?" He added that "For example, I have read that comparing her skin color to food would count as "derogatory". How would I describe someone like that OTHER THAN that?"

Naturally, the question that is raised is what is meant by "heavy Egyptian influence"?

Archeologists and historians are divided over what Egyptians looked like but they do agree on a few things:

1. They're very unlikely to have been light skinned. The desert sun would've ensured that.
2. Red hair did actually exist among Egyptians, which means that not all of them were descended from sub-Saharan peoples as sub-Saharan peoples never had red hair.
3. Inter-racial relationships weren't unusual. Cleopatra, for example, was part Macedonian (i.e. white) and either part Persian or part African. Either way, there's no chance she would've looked even remotely like Elizabeth Taylor!
4. Art works depicting ancient Egyptians almost certainly exaggerated certain features and skin colours.

If the experts can't agree on what the ancient Egyptians looked like or what their skin colour(s) were then the question can only be answered by asking what the original poster had in mind when they were asking the question.

When it comes to the skin colour of a person there is always the option of using the colour of objects or features that can be found in the setting. For example:

Horus gazes towards the river Nile, the mud reminding him of his wife. Her skin is just as dark and smooth. 'Isis,' he whispers under his breath. 'We shall be reunited one day soon.' He returns to planting the seeds, content in the knowledge that the crops he plants in this mud will feed himself, his family and his local village for the following year to come - and pay the ransom for the return of the beloved mother of their children.

 

[skip.knox]

I echo what Ankari said. Rather than asking how one would do X, a far more useful approach in a forum that is about writing would be actually to write something. Then ask for feedback on the actual writing. The comments received would then be more on point.

 

[Mad Swede]

S J Lee summed up why I found this thread fundamentally flawed. Demesnedenoir Summed up my opinion on this matter.. I;m more surprised by how easily a question by Jdailey1991 devolved into this mucking around the mud and eventual slinging of said mud. Writers really need to stop asking how can they do something and just do it. If a writer has an image in their mind of what a character looks like, then describe it. If a writer doesn't know the background context of the era they chose to write in, then they committed a fundamental flaw and need to address it with research.

I'm not sure why you're surprised. It's a classic problem on the internet, caused by the fact that we can't hear one another or see one another. What it does illustrate is how easy it is to misinterpret what someone meant when they wrote something. There's an expression for it in Swedish: talking past one another.

And that expression leads me back to my comments on unintentional predjudice. I am not being critical of anyone when I use that expression. As someone who is disabled by my severe dyslexia I get it quite a lot. People offer to read and/or write for me. They mean well, and don't really understand how offensive it might be. Best is if you ask me, as many do. Worst and most offensive is when they do it without asking. Thanks, but I can read and write. It just takes me a bit longer. The other aspect which many people don't consider is what an "invisible" disability like dyslexia means. Try reading one of those snazzy information displays on a bus or train or in a shop when you're dyslexic. They sure look good, but for me they're hell to read, if I can do so at all. Yet the designers just assume everyone can read... The latest term for all these things is "micro-agressions". I hate that expression. it's not about agression, or putting anyone down. It's just people making assumptions and not thinking - and that is unintentional.

So finally. As writers and as readers we carry with us a set of predjudices, or values if you like. They're based on what has happened to us in our lives. Yes, we need to be aware of them when we write, and we should try to write in a way which doesn't unintentionally offend people. But as readers, and especially as critics, we also need to be aware of those predjudices, because they colour what we assume about and how we interpret what we're reading. And these assumptions and interpretations may be very wrong, as we've seen in the example of the Hunger Games. As pilots say, check - don't assume.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Guys, we're writers. Why are we discussing the quality of olive skin in an ancient world which was the crossroads of culture and humanity for thousands of years. What about something like, "Her complexion was the travelers road, rich with gold and myrrh. She wore the face of her enemies on the soles of her sandals and her name was whispered with reverence. She was king. She was god. And the eternal sand itself trickled from her skin."

 

[Prince of Spires]

Guys, we're writers. Why are we discussing the quality of olive skin in an ancient world which was the crossroads of culture and humanity for thousands of years. What about something like, "Her complexion was the travelers road, rich with gold and myrrh. She wore the face of her enemies on the soles of her sandals and her name was whispered with reverence. She was king. She was god. And the eternal sand itself trickled from her skin."

Because not all of us have your gift for description and evoking character...

As a side note, as a result of the whole olive skin discussion it now gives me an image of a sickly green zombie wandering around.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

See, olive is a perfectly serviceable color, but there are SO many more. Color implies history. It implies power. It implies the sacred. Have fun with it!

 

[A. E. Lowan]

And if you think skin color is fun, check this out. I love genetics. They prove we're all human.

Writing With Color — vasundharaa: no0000oo00oo *insert fictional... (tumblr.com)

 

[SumnerH]

That's curious...if you said, "her skin was the color of an old hamburger," I could see the derision. "Caramel" might be too objectifying. But "olive-skinned" seems fairly innocent to me. What color are you going for?

The excellent Writing With Color blog that Chasejxyz linked upthread discusses why food analogies are often problematic. It specifically mentions olive-skinned as an exception: it's a neutral technical term that is generally acceptable, with the caveat that it doesn't necessarily imply that the person discussed is a POC.

Writing With Color Part I: POC and Food Comparisons:

As for the exceptions: Olive-toned skin is a relatively “technical” and accepted term for skin tone. Though note it doesn’t = POC so don’t rely on the term heavily or solely as a means to indicate your character is of color.

Part II offers some suggestions for alternative/acceptable terminology.

Yes, Farenheit 451 isn't about censorship, but that's what most people come to the conclusion to when they read it, which means the themes of the book were not conveyed properly.

Or perhaps the themes of the book were conveyed properly at the time, but the author's idea of what themes he wanted it to be about shifted in intervening years. It's certainly true that in his later years Bradbury was adamant that the book was not about censorship but rather about television and other media destroying our interest in reading. But in earlier interviews he himself framed it as being written under the specter of McCarthyism and censorship — the television as opiate portion was still there as well, but censorship was also a core theme he discussed.

From a 1956 BBC interview:

I wrote this book at a time when I was worried about the way things were going in this country four years ago. Too many people were afraid of their shadows; there was a threat of book burning. Many of the books were being taken off the shelves at that time.