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Immortal Matriarchy

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
I was pondering elven society in my current WIP. Elves are immortal and that they don't die of old age even if they can be killed. Elven females are fertile when they are between two hundred and eight hundred years old - when males are fertile (is that the correct word) I haven't spent much time thinking about.
Six hundred years is a long time and forever is an even longer time. Love is a strong power when it comes to binding people together, but I imagine that over time even immortals will change. Old flames die and new fires are kindled. Elves of both sexes are likely to have multiple/several partners throughout their lives.
Bearing this in mind, the importance of relationships between elves may not be very significant, they're likely to be temporary after all. However, no matter how many partners you have you will only have one father and one mother, making this relation much stronger than the one between partners. I also believe that the relation between the mother and the child is stronger than that between the father and the child. I imagine that most elves will know their father, but they may not necessarily know their grandfather or their great grandfather or their greater grandfathers. Because of this I imagine it will be easier for elves to trace their lineage through their mothers and grandmothers.
I think that from the above it's not a big step towards imagining that the female elves are the main authority of the species. It's through them the lineage is traced and they're the ones raising new elves into the world.

When I started writing this I had just a vague idea of what I wanted to say, but as I tried explaining it a lot of questions arose. Some of these questions had answers, others didn't. In the end, the question is short and simple: is it believable/plausible that among immortals it is the women who are the rulers?

I believe it is - but I'd be happy to see you poking the plot holes or asking the questions I've not answered or even thought of.
 

glutton

Inkling
A matriarchy could be believable whether or not the species is immortal but the reasoning that the bond between mother and child is stronger seems a little iffy - in my view, at least with regard to humans, that would vary from individual to individual.
 

Nihal

Vala
I don't see why not. Human women usually outlive the men, because men are more prone to take risks (stupid or not). If your elves are like this, also having in mind the cultural factor, you're going to end with more old female elves than males. So, if you also have an equalist society that respect their elders, matriarchy is quite believable.

What actually worries me is the birth rate. If you don't find a way to counter-balance the immortality you're going to find yourself with a overpopulated world.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Aye, of course it varies from individual to individual. It's a broad generalization but I imagine that overall - if it was measurable and quantifiable - the relation between mother and child would be stronger than that between father and child. It wouldn't be by much, but it would be enough that it would be measurable.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

Troubadour
A couple of thoughts:

-- One of the great things about fantasy writing is taking interesting concepts (immortal elves) and playing out the potential implications of those concepts. I don't see any reason why immortality couldn't lead to matriarchal rulers if you decide to play out the logic the way you have above.

-- The flip to this is that if everyone is immortal (barring accident or misadventure), I'm not sure there's a particular reason a child wouldn't know his father, grandfather and all his various great grandfathers -- presumably all of these men are still around. Who knows, maybe a young elf's best friend is his great-great-great-great-great grandfather, who as an immortal looks the same physical age as the young elf and goes drinking and carousing with him most nights of the week (or whatever).
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Aye, birthrate is something of an issue. I haven't done the math on this but I imagine if the numbers become too big I can adjust some numbers here and there and that'll handle it. Time to fire up the old excel sheets.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
A couple of thoughts:
-- The flip to this is that if everyone is immortal (barring accident or misadventure), I'm not sure there's a particular reason a child wouldn't know his father, grandfather and all his various great grandfathers -- presumably all of these men are still around. Who knows, maybe a young elf's best friend is his great-great-great-great-great grandfather, who as an immortal looks the same physical age as the young elf and goes drinking and carousing with him most nights of the week (or whatever).

This is a good point and I actually have something of an answer for this.
Firstly, the world is big and due to the way the spirits of the land affects everything that lives on it the elves will have to move at regular intervals (every 500 to 2000 years). Elves may very well know their great grandfathers or at least who they were, but they may not keep as much in touch - especially if the corresponding great grandmother isn't keeping in touch.
Secondly, the first elves that arrived were very tall, upward towards three meters (ten feet). For each generation the average height of elves has decreased to a stage where elves born in the modern day are barely taller than anfylk (hobbits) when they reach their adult height.

They may very well go out drinking together anyway.
 

Nihal

Vala
Two quick ways of controlling the birth rate:

1. Change the fertility rules for females.
You can increase the time gap of when a woman can't conceive after giving birth (I don't know if it has a specific name in English). You can also increase the non-fertile time between her menstrual cycles. Also the secondary infertility incidence.

2. Tie the fertility to some environmental condition.
Many species are only fertile during specific times of year when certain environmental requisites are met. The nature is your ally here, giving a plenty of good ideas.
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
As an alternative to decreasing the fertility period, perhaps you could increase the number of infant deaths or miscarriages. Many Fae myths have a large percentage of Fae children as very frail and sickly, which is a big part of why they swap their offspring for those of humans. Healthy children are far easier to care for.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
I was originally thinking that the average elven female would have two children and that there would be roughly three generations to a millennium. This turned out to result in a VERY BIG number of elves. After twisting some numbers around I figured that with 1.25 children per elf I wouldn't have to adjust the number of generations and still reach the number of elves I'd imagined - roughly 3% of the world's population.
 

Alexandra

Closed Account
Patriarchies are illogical whereas matriarchies make sense for one simple reason: bloodlines. A child always knows who her/his mother is but fathers... not so much. Just think of real-world birth certificates; the father can be (and often is) listed as 'unknown' but the mother?... no. The mother, hence the matrilineal bloodline, is always known.

There are elves in my novel but I don't worry about issues such as birth rates. Elves are considered an advanced race therefore their birth rate is low, mirroring our world and how it currently works (First World birth rates are lower than Third World). There are also plenty of ways for immortals to get killed: war, disease, foul luck and misadventure, house rivalries (see war), and boredom. Bored elves in the Western Isles don't ship to Valinor, they fall on their swords.
 
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Jess A

Archmage
I agree with Alexandra - I have a species that is very, very long-lived. They're not elves but the concept is the same. They don't generally age past a point. However, they struggle to have children, and they are always at war. There are few opportunities to conceive a child in any case. Both genders fight. This means that every child is celebrated. It also means that some groups probably steal kids from other groups.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

Troubadour
However illogical they might be, patriarchies do exist, while there is no conclusive evidence of matriarchies in the real world either now or in history (legends about the Hopi and the Iroquois, certain African tribes, or primitive Stone Age tribes notwithstanding). Some societies are known for the concept of matrilineal lineage (tracing bloodlines through the mother) without a matriarchal power dynamic (e.g. Judaism) but even in these societies the bloodline is traced through males quite regularly, with the concept of matrilineality honored more in the breach than the observance.

In short, you will basically find no real world examples of matriarchy to guide your elven society and only limited examples of patriarchal but matrilineal societies. None of which are reasons not to have a culture of immortal matriarchal elves (which I think sounds kind of cool), but just be conscious that you'll have to make up most of the details yourself.

And agreed with Ireth, Nihal, Alexandra and Jess A that one of the really interesting dynamics among immortal elves would be reproduction rates and how children are valued in society.
 
Hi,

It's your story make it up. The only thing you need to set out is a reason why women should rule the roost. In most human societies, men rule simply because of historical rules, the fact that men can go out to work while women stay home with the kids, and of course strength and agressiveness. Thesethings may or may not be fair, but the reality is that they dictate a lot of custom etc.

For your elven woman to rule you need a reason that woman should. My first thought would be that the society should be inherently peaceful, because if they engage in war then the strength and agreesion of men will start to become more important, leading to their status in society rising. Next the mother child bond - I don't think this will work so well, since after a century or two I'm not sure how strong that bond would be. Immortality changes things including personal relationships. So perhaps instead you need some factor that elven women have that the men folk don't or have less of. If men have physicality and agression, maybe women have wisdom, empathy or perhaps a psychic ability. Something that is highly valued by their society.

I find myself to a certain extent thinking of She, the immortal queen of H Rider Haggard, and her status being assured by her immortality and her magical abilities. Also Liz the First and Victoria, both women rulers placed there by essentially acts of birth, but both holding their positions by using their intelligence and wit, and also their strength of personality. Maybe elven women are naturally more inclined to these sorts of roles. Or you could look at Boadicea, who basically held her position by cruelty and savagery in battle. Maybe elven women are the natural warriors of their people.

Whatever you choose its your story so tell it as you see it.

Cheers, Greg.
 
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