Jodie Foster Slams writers for use of

[Heliotrope]

On another note.... I think GRRM is doing just fine with his books and TV show, and Terry Goodkind got a $750,000 check for his first book in a publishers bidding war...

So neither of them probably really care about this debate

And obviously their readers don't either.

 

[Miskatonic]

Here's a little food for thought. Look at #1 on this list. It's adult related content so view at your own discretion.

Women's Top 10 Sexual Fantasies - HealthyPlace

 

[Miskatonic]

On another note.... I think GRRM is doing just fine with his books and TV show, and Terry Goodkind got a $750,000 check for his first book in a publishers bidding war...

So neither of them probably really care about this debate

And obviously their readers don't either.

Yeah I'm kind of jealous of GRRM. I wish I could be a paid writer that doesn't write anything. Then again that would mean I'm not really a writer.

 

[FifthView]

Overall, my problem with the rape trope is when it's used in a facile way to amp up sympathy, antipathy, or tension. Of course, this could apply to just about any method for increasing those things.

I've mentioned torture a couple time already in this thread. That bit I quoted from Writing Excuses ties into this, since I thought of torture first when those podcasters were listing their peeves. It came home to me when reading Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series and in one novel one of the two MCs, who I'd been loving for the series so far, was captured and tortured. Yes, yes, it had the effect of amping those thing up for me, horribly so as I'm sure it was intended to do. But I thought, why? Why? Didn't seem to need doing, when nothing else similar had occurred yet in the series (nor after this incident), and felt like gratuitous violence/button-pushing.

 

[Devor]

I've only seen two seasons of the show, but having read the books, I don't have any qualms with GRRM over rape. His world is universally awful and the rape, at least to me, doesn't really stand out. Sansa, for instance, spends a book or two being terrified it might happen, and it never even does.

Goodkind is nauseating about it, though.

 

[Miskatonic]

I'd love to know how many of these books Miss Foster has actually read, or if she's just reading blogs and articles and making big assumptions.

 

[Heliotrope]

It does seem to me that it is mostly writers who care about this stuff. Maybe because we read a lot? I don't know. Like, I bought Wizard's First Rule when I was 14, and I loved it. Honestly. I have no issue about saying that I loved it. At that time in my life it was perfect. Zedd the stereotypical skinny wizard who loved food, Khalan the stereotypical mysterious sorceress, Richard the stereotypical Gary Sue... It was my favorite series for a long time, despite the rape and torture. As a reader I just didn't know that these were all 'tropes' or 'cliches'. I just knew I liked the story.

I think most readers don't think too much about it, honestly. But we seem to really care about this stuff as writers.

 

[Ireth]

I've mentioned torture a couple time already in this thread. That bit I quoted from Writing Excuses ties into this, since I thought of torture first when those podcasters were listing their peeves. It came home to me when reading Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series and in one novel one of the two MCs, who I'd been loving for the series so far, was captured and tortured. Yes, yes, it had the effect of amping those thing up for me, horribly so as I'm sure it was intended to do. But I thought, why? Why? Didn't seem to need doing, when nothing else similar had occurred yet in the series (nor after this incident), and felt like gratuitous violence/button-pushing.

This makes me think of one of my WIPs. The MC, a Fae named Cadell, at one point kidnaps and briefly tortures a human character in misguided vengeance for a mistaken slight. Later on Cadell himself is captured and tortured (offscreen) by the antagonist's mooks, and it is this that opens his eyes to his own cruelty, by holding a mirror up to it. Thus he's inspired to be a better person and try making peace with the humans, rather than falling back on his people's customs of toying with them; this becomes one of his main motivators throughout the book. So in this case it does serve the plot in a very big way, and isn't just there for pointless violence.

 

[FifthView]

It does seem to me that it is mostly writers who care about this stuff. Maybe because we read a lot? I don't know. Like, I bought Wizard's First Rule when I was 14, and I loved it. Honestly. I have no issue about saying that I loved it. At that time in my life it was perfect. Zedd the stereotypical skinny wizard who loved food, Khalan the stereotypical mysterious sorceress, Richard the stereotypical Gary Sue... It was my favorite series for a long time, despite the rape and torture. As a reader I just didn't know that these were all 'tropes' or 'cliches'. I just knew I liked the story.

I think most readers don't think too much about it, honestly. But we seem to really care about this stuff as writers.

It could also be a matter of experience. The first time or two or three someone pushes your buttons in a particular way? Success! But after awhile...a little tedious.

 

[Nimue]

A) Jodie Foster's opinion was about film specifically, not fantasy books. I doubt she's been reading blogs complaining about GRR Martin.

B) No one is saying rape can't be used well as a plot device and should be jettisoned, only that it has been overused in a shallow, cheap way across multiple media.

C) If you're looking for more examples, check out the Rape as Backstory trope. It's a thing.

 

[Nimue]

Here's a little food for thought. Look at #1 on this list. It's adult related content so view at your own discretion.

Women's Top 10 Sexual Fantasies - HealthyPlace

Also, this is seriously inappropriate. Are you implying that because some women enjoy a certain sexual fantasy, that no one should be able to complain about it being plastered across non-erotic media as well?

 

[Miskatonic]

Also, this is seriously inappropriate. Are you implying that because some women enjoy a certain sexual fantasy, that no one should be able to complain about it being plastered across non-erotic media as well?

I just find it ironic.

 

[Miskatonic]

I would advice people to take this issue more seriously.

A very long time ago, we had a problem when people were bashing famous authors and one of them actually showed up here (using a different name) in order to defend him or herself. Please do not attack Jodie Foster personally in your posts, because she could be reading this and we do not want to look like a site that throws personal attacks at famous and generally admired people.

Many actors and actresses have participated in roles and films that they later regretted.

I also dislike very much how the issue in question has become so common in Fantasy stories these days. I am not sure why or how this has happened, but I agree with Foster on her opinion that the tendency is wrong. It's a very serious, delicate issue and it should be treated with more respect.

She's entitled to her opinion.

I seriously doubt she even knows this site exists.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Let's move away from assumptions regarding what women in reality might or might not think, & back to how the topic is used in literature, or other media types.

We're talking about writing here, and while we may dip into reality in the fashioning of our stories, we should refrain from moving our discussion toward societal issues & away from craft discussion.

Keep it focused, please.

 

[Reaver]

Everyone has an agenda, even if their agenda is "leave me alone".
And I would be wary of saying she doesn't care about the issue. She may not express herself in a way that motivates you but it motivated her.
As an aside are all the poster's in this thread male?
I would be interesting to hear another perspective.
As a white middle-class middle-aged man from a fairly comfortable background, I'm not sure I have the chops or experience [and maybe the right?] to comment with authority on some issues that others see as affecting them.

No one is commenting with any semblance of authority. I never claimed to be an expert or even know Jodi Foster.

Like others here, including you, I'm expressing my opinion. You and anyone else have the right to either agree, disagree or feel indifferent to the opinion.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Hmm, maybe I have personal selection bias but I haven't read or consumed too many stories wherein Rape as Backstory occurred. The only significant one is A Song of Ice and Fire. However, I do agree with Ms. Foster in that there are so many other and better motivations for a woman to do something than just getting raped. A character is, after all, an individual person and so should have individual motivations. Some of them could be related to rape and molestation, but that would in some way have to relate to her doing as the character is doing in the story. Why can't she be politically motivated? Or why can't she want money? Or why can't she do it for her friends, brother, sister, child, mom, dad, self, etc.? It is just strange to me that there is so much rape as backstory. It kind of cheapens it, if you ask me, particularly if the whole rape thing doesn't tie much into the actual story,

 

[Chessie]

Personally, I have a very hard time reading rape scenes or watching them on the tele. I'll put a book down if one comes up. I'll turn the t.v. off. But I've also known several women who've been raped and their experiences dealing with the trauma and the aftermath are horrifying. I don't like the way G.R.R. Martin portrays women in his books. I don't like the way sexual violence is used. I don't like that readers gobble that shit up and that there are rape fantasy books selling on Amazon right now. Rape is a very serious occurrence. A painful one that destroys lives and some women/children/men live in a depressed cycle for years and years because of it.

So my opinion is this: rape doesn't have a place in fantasy imo. Yes, it exists. Yes, we should talk to our kids about it. We don't shelter our son from much unless it's something his 8 yr old mind would do well to understand in a few years. But we read books and watch movies to escape reality. This is why I dislike GOT so much. Why would I want to read about rape, violence, incest, etc when it exists in the real world and I'm exposed to all of these things on the regular?

Although I'm not a Jodie fan much these days, she has a right to her opinion. And while I do think that rape can be used as a good plot device when appropriate, the point is missed in these sorts of debates. Using it in your story is one thing, but if you ever meet a rape survivor or are friends/related to one and see the journey they undertake, you might never read rape scenes again. Just saying.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

And while I do think that rape can be used as a good plot device when appropriate, the point is missed in these sorts of debates. Using it in your story is one thing, but if you ever meet a rape survivor or are friends/related to one and see the journey they undertake, you might never read rape scenes again.

I certainly haven't missed that point, and I don't think most have. However, I will say that I believe pushing artists toward a point of censorship, where any charged subject is to be avoided, is a bad thing.

I'm not saying this is what Foster is doing either. Rather, I think she's talking about the use as a cheap plot point, or a fallback device for weak, unimaginative writing. In those cases, I'd agree with her. Still, we must be equally careful to not suggest restrictions like "____________ has no place in the fantasy genre." Fiction (especially fantasy & SciFi) is one of the best vehicles to discuss harmful societal issues because it allows the consumer to view those issues from differing angles, and in a way that isn't tied directly to their day-to-day.

Further, I want to clarify... I don't think anyone here is calling for those types of restrictions. I believe each is making a personal choice regarding their story telling and reading.

 

[Chessie]

Well, I can say that it has no place in fantasy genre because it's how I feel about the given subject. Unless it's a story about how the victim survives the trauma and aftermath, then I don't want to read it. That's personal preference. Not a suggested restriction.

 

[FifthView]

But we read books and watch movies to escape reality.

This, or some variation of it, has appeared a few times recently in discussions, and I think it deserves a thread of its own.

But I'm not going to start that thread because I think it would grow contentious very quickly!