Logistics of a mountaintop city

[Finchbearer]

If you’re going into detail on food production, to my understanding it was only really European convention to practice crop rotation, which takes up more land. You have land laying fallow for a long time which depletes soil structure. Maybe your mountain community could be more innovative, using agroforestry or something. This also has the benefit of concealment and buffering from the weather.

 

[CupofJoe]

If not already mentioned, you might want to look at Nepal, Bhutan and the Tibetan Plateau.

 

[Finchbearer]

I was also thinking Tibet! I recently watched a travel / food vlog in Tibet and it relies heavily on animal fat for the diet. Animal hide and yaks are very important it would appear.

 

[LostName]

Thanks! And yes, Machu Picchu is one of the models I had used for the city.

But in this case, it is basically a fortress city built for reasons of security - a retreat for administration, so to speak.

If it's a fortress it should be even easier because in a city most of the logistics are done by and done for regular citizens and not the government or some warlord or whatever so it's unorganized and a lot of small scale logistics. Individuals coming to market, etc..

But if it's a retreat for the administration they will have a group of people for each function, those who farm, mine, etc. who then pass on the resources to those who transport them and those might transport them to the foot of the plateau of the fortress city and there either pass the resources on to those working there, who then transport them up the plateau because it makes no sense to transport the earlier group of delivery people to the fortress city as well, especially when they have medieval level tech.
This can be done via switchback,paths, long staircases hewn into the rock (probably also switchback because it's better in almost every way) or via a medieval pulley system that would be powered by people, probably the poor or slaves or such or by animals or by waterpower, e.g. a water wheel in a stream or river at the foot of the plateau powering this, maybe even via an aqueduct because said stream or river isn't actually that close to the plateau (the Romans built aqueducts over hundreds of kilometers).

And finally at the top of the plateau in the outskirts of the fortress city would be the people receiving the resources and then delivering them to the warehouses / marketplaces / etc..
Depending on geography, etc. you can have this be outside the walls which becomes a problem during long sieges or it could be protected by walls, but then the entire way up has to be protected including the start at the foot of the plateau or supply with resources can be interrupted just as easily by enemies.

Of course for total security all the the transport routes and preferably even the locations where the resources are gathered / made like farms and mines would need to be heavily guarded.
Otherwise there could be major problems, e.g. if bandits or invaders cannot attack the heavily protected fortress city they could take over over cities or just starve them out, especially if the stores of important things like food, salt, potentially heating materials like firewood or coal (if it gets cold and heating is needed), etc. are not big then the population of the fortress city might cause trouble, potentially even try to overthrow the administration to end a siege / stop invaders from raiding the farms / transport routes / etc. so that goods can flow into the fortress city again.

This could happen even if starvation is not the issue but because of other hardships, e.g. if money is short and people don't get paid, whether it's pure currency or specific goods that are often used instead of currency like e.g. in feudal Japan specific measures of rice were often used instead of large amounts of currency, e.g. as tax but this could also be e.g. shells / minerals used in prayer or whatever.

 

[Aldarion]

if you want a population number, you can go 2 routes. If you look at historical figures, you can get an idea. Historically, Machu Picchu is estimated to have had about 1.000 inhabitants (at the high end). A place like Ollantaytambo (which doesn't sit on a mountaintop, but still at 2.700m elevation) had something like 15.000.

Another approach is to estimate how much land was available for agriculture, and take it from there. Google estimates a medieval farmer needed something like 1-2 ha to feed 1 person. Figure out how much room there is, and you can calculate what you can sustain.

I thought to give it a population of 15 000. But it is also not exactly on the top of the mountain any more, but rather a series of plateaus at its side - only the topmost plateau is actually the "top", and it is just the top of the hill, not the mountain:

Logistics of a mountaintop city

So looking at a city located on a mountaintop or a mountain plateau (think Machu Picchu), how would the city logistics works? Most cities had immediate farmland to provide food, but how could a mountaintop city solve food issues (I already have ideas on water, mind you)? Is there a limit on how...

mythicscribes.com

That being said, it would have to be a large hill, so... how tall?

If it's a fortress it should be even easier because in a city most of the logistics are done by and done for regular citizens and not the government or some warlord or whatever so it's unorganized and a lot of small scale logistics. Individuals coming to market, etc..

But if it's a retreat for the administration they will have a group of people for each function, those who farm, mine, etc. who then pass on the resources to those who transport them and those might transport them to the foot of the plateau of the fortress city and there either pass the resources on to those working there, who then transport them up the plateau because it makes no sense to transport the earlier group of delivery people to the fortress city as well, especially when they have medieval level tech.
This can be done via switchback,paths, long staircases hewn into the rock (probably also switchback because it's better in almost every way) or via a medieval pulley system that would be powered by people, probably the poor or slaves or such or by animals or by waterpower, e.g. a water wheel in a stream or river at the foot of the plateau powering this, maybe even via an aqueduct because said stream or river isn't actually that close to the plateau (the Romans built aqueducts over hundreds of kilometers).

And finally at the top of the plateau in the outskirts of the fortress city would be the people receiving the resources and then delivering them to the warehouses / marketplaces / etc..
Depending on geography, etc. you can have this be outside the walls which becomes a problem during long sieges or it could be protected by walls, but then the entire way up has to be protected including the start at the foot of the plateau or supply with resources can be interrupted just as easily by enemies.

Of course for total security all the the transport routes and preferably even the locations where the resources are gathered / made like farms and mines would need to be heavily guarded.
Otherwise there could be major problems, e.g. if bandits or invaders cannot attack the heavily protected fortress city they could take over over cities or just starve them out, especially if the stores of important things like food, salt, potentially heating materials like firewood or coal (if it gets cold and heating is needed), etc. are not big then the population of the fortress city might cause trouble, potentially even try to overthrow the administration to end a siege / stop invaders from raiding the farms / transport routes / etc. so that goods can flow into the fortress city again.

This could happen even if starvation is not the issue but because of other hardships, e.g. if money is short and people don't get paid, whether it's pure currency or specific goods that are often used instead of currency like e.g. in feudal Japan specific measures of rice were often used instead of large amounts of currency, e.g. as tax but this could also be e.g. shells / minerals used in prayer or whatever.

This is the plan I had in mind:

Logistics of a mountaintop city

So looking at a city located on a mountaintop or a mountain plateau (think Machu Picchu), how would the city logistics works? Most cities had immediate farmland to provide food, but how could a mountaintop city solve food issues (I already have ideas on water, mind you)? Is there a limit on how...

mythicscribes.com

Basically, it is no longer at the top of the mountain, but rather a series of hillside plateaus. And it is not a "retreat" for administration, but rather a full-fledged capital that administration had fled to following the fall of the old capital - think of the Byzantine Empire continuing as Empire of Nicaea (and Trebizond, and Morea) following the fall of Constantinople in 1204.

Still, I do want to figure out what exactly is necessary to make it work... after all, I am planning to showing it under siege at one point, and sieges are all about logistics. And I don't want to have to go back and rewrite half the stuff to make it work.

If you’re going into detail on food production, to my understanding it was only really European convention to practice crop rotation, which takes up more land. You have land laying fallow for a long time which depletes soil structure. Maybe your mountain community could be more innovative, using agroforestry or something. This also has the benefit of concealment and buffering from the weather.

Or alternatively, how large of a city could be sustained primarily by mountain herding? (I don't mean herding mountains, but herding animals along the mountain).

 

[JBCrowson]

I was looking at your maps, which clarify the setting very well. If I were building the fortress there I would have a short wall (I think having a long wall implies a short wall exists somewhere anyway). I would have it across the mouth of the gorge below the 3 plateaux of the city From the Shepherds' Gate on the city side, with a songle gate in it that gives access to the gorge, city gates and valley beyond. the three tiers give good dramatic options for a siege - one or two of the levels could be successfully taken before some intervention relieves the city. For that to work the rocky areas between tiers would need to be high and steep enough to be essentially unclimbable, which I think is a plausible geology. The waterfall to the sacred pool offers potential for a hidden access route through natural caves within the bedrock, added to by human (?) activity over time, and thus option for the city to fall by betrayal of this access to the invaders.

OK I'll stop, since I'm clearly getting carried away in your world. Sorry!

 

[JBCrowson]

from the Shepherds' Gate on the city side, with a songle gate in it that gives access to the gorge

OK so that should have been single gate - unless it is a gate primed to close when it hears a sea shanty being sung with lusty vigour.

 

[Aldarion]

I was looking at your maps, which clarify the setting very well. If I were building the fortress there I would have a short wall (I think having a long wall implies a short wall exists somewhere anyway). I would have it across the mouth of the gorge below the 3 plateaux of the city From the Shepherds' Gate on the city side, with a songle gate in it that gives access to the gorge, city gates and valley beyond.

The idea behind the long wall was similar to the Long Wall of Constantinople / Anastasian Wall or else Tolkien's Rammas Echor - it is not there to stop a determined enemy, but to protect the farmland beyond it from quick raids, and also to delay the enemy attempting assault while at the same time giving warning to the city itself.

I felt that a short wall at the mouth of the gorge would be kinda redundant, but thinking about it now, it could serve to prevent the enemy from surrounding the city completely?

the three tiers give good dramatic options for a siege - one or two of the levels could be successfully taken before some intervention relieves the city.

Agreed. And it would serve well to show how strong the enemy is, considering I actually have a hard time imagining any pre-gunpowder historical army taking even the lowest level - walls there are stronger than Theodosian walls of Constantinople (I actually based them on Krak des Chevaliers!).

For that to work the rocky areas between tiers would need to be high and steep enough to be essentially unclimbable, which I think is a plausible geology.

That is the idea, yes.

The waterfall to the sacred pool offers potential for a hidden access route through natural caves within the bedrock, added to by human (?) activity over time, and thus option for the city to fall by betrayal of this access to the invaders.

There is no waterfall there, though. White lines on the map are actually roads leading from the city gates. And even if there were... it will have required taking lower two levels.

As for betrayal or something... well, there are typically postern gates in the walls in addition to main gate. And many cities fell because a gate was left open - sometimes even by accident!

OK I'll stop, since I'm clearly getting carried away in your world. Sorry!

Don't worry, good ideas are always welcome!