FifthView
Vala
Might as well launch into a mild rant. Mild, because I think the show is a good example of what not to do, but overall I'd give the show a 5/10. Humdrum, mediocre, but far from the worst television show ever made.
Fair warning: There'll be spoilers in this thread. That's probably the best way to address various problems with the show. So don't read on if you haven't watched it and don't want it spoiled for you.
First, some words on the "whitewashing" controversy that has attached itself to the show.
I really don't want this thread to turn into a heated debate about this; but that seems to be a real issue with the show so....
I'm ambivalent.
The original comic featured a white, heterosexual man orphaned as a child in a plane accident in the Himalayas, discovered by monks from a mystical city, and trained in the martial arts. So the show stays true to that origin. Plus, the idea that martial arts is "an Asian thing" and therefore the character should be played by an Asian/Asian-American actor seems to me to be inherently racist: martial arts are an art, and anyone can learn the art. There's a scene where Danny Rand "teaches" the character Colleen Wing, a Japanese-American master martial artist, in her own dojo—some think this is rubbing salt in the wound, but I'm thinking this is Iron Fist, supposedly the or one of the best martial artists in the Marvel Universe, so yeah, he should be a better martial artist than just about everyone he meets, regardless of the ethnic or racial backgrounds.
BUT on the other hand...One could say that Marvel's original comic creation was a case of whitewashing, itself, so the fact that this show follows the original is not much of an argument. One could also say that the issue isn't about race so much as culture; i.e., the martial arts Danny uses have an Asian origin, and it'd make more sense to have an Asian-American play the role rather than have a white Westerner co-opt the cultural element. I would still quibble—martial arts is an art, and the ability to be a great martial artist is not something genetically encoded, and the art has crossed national and regional boundaries already—but all-in-all I kinda wish Marvel had foreseen the controversy and had used someone other than a white character for Iron Fist. Marvel has diverged from its comic origins before and could have done so now. But a part of me wishes they'd not only foreseen the controversy, they'd decided to go with a Latino, Samoan, or Native American actor, heh.
For me, Danny Rand's race was not an issue, although I do regret the controversy.
The actor's acting chops were not an issue ultimately.
Mediocre Fighting
But his lack of martial arts skills was an issue—a major issue. Not being in the movie industry myself, I can't really say whether this is more of an issue with cinematography and choreography instead. But the fighting in this show was mediocre at best, and rather silly at worst.
So that would be point one for me against the show. This is Iron Fist, fer goodness' sake, and he's supposed to be a great martial artist. He killed a mythical dragon bare-handed....sometime before the show even starts. I've watched so many martial arts movies, one of my favorite genres, and most of them featured much, much better fighting than Iron Fist. Look, there's something great about seeing Spider-man swinging for the first time, Daredevil overcoming incredible odds in clever and stunning ways, etc. That's what you are supposed to do with these characters: Make them incredible-but-still-credible. But the fighting in Iron Fist sucked. What I wouldn't have given to have the choreographers from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon work on this show; or, just about anyone from the Hong Kong industry. Gosh, I'd even have been happy with Quentin Tarantino directing, because at least he understands the need for spectacle and thrilling fights.
So I think that Finn Jones's lack of martial arts training & proficiency was a major issue, but I can't really lay all the blame on him. Casting director gets that, maybe, or some combination of that and director/cinematographer/choreographer.
Who're we fighting?
Point two against the show, and I really, really wish Marvel would hear this: Don't change the villain or primary antagonist during a 13-episode show. And please, please don't change this twice, as they did here. There was Madame Gao. Then, nope, nope, she's just going to give in and disappear after the buildup, and then it's going to be Bakuto and a different (primary?) sect of The Hand. But, nope, nope, he's going to be killed by Colleen Wing—nothin' to do with Iron Fist, eh?—and just disappear. And at the very end it's Harold Meachum after all.
In my opinion, the first season of Daredevil got it right: You pick your villain, introduce him early, and work the whole season to build up to the final showdown. Jessica Jones also got this right. But Luke Cage didn't; had to have a mid-stream switcheroo. And Iron Fist got it so, so wrong.
My impression is that the creators of the show thought they'd be clever in doing these switcheroos. But it really saps the energy, the momentum, and....
What kind of show is this?
Heck, the fighting, hero-antagonist struggle, etc., are really, really beside the point after all. This is a character story, right? So that's why Colleen Wing had to kill Bakuto: her character arc herp derp. And that's why Danny Rand had to be mopey, display uber amounts of internal turmoil (real "martial arts master" there, eh, heh heh), and why the show couldn't make up its mind about whether its title was truly Iron Fist or instead Rand Corporation or maybe Kun Lun or....The Danny and Colleen Love Show.
Also, this lack of focus is the origin of one common criticism that critics have made: The show goes nowhere, just stumbles along, starts lethargically and still manages to peter out.
OK. So those are my biggest problems with the show.
I could add the campy factors, like those three silly/ridiculous opponents Gao had Danny fight or, later, the Drunken Master nod. But a part of me kinda liked those, or could buy those no problem had everything else been better. (Secretly, I enjoyed the Drunken Master nod, heh.)
But there were some things I liked about it. I think I enjoyed Ward Meachum the most in the show, and a part of me wishes this Netflix exclusive had really been called The Rand Corporation. Heck, it almost was.
And Iron Fist benefits from association. The Defenders* and all that. The inclusion of Claire Temple and Jeri Hogarth. (I almost want a miniseries featuring all, and only, the female characters from Netflix's Marvel series.) So it was mediocre, overall, but not absolutely wretched, imo.
______
*Honorable Mention Rant: Seriously, someone tell Marvel we simply don't care about The Hand. DD S2 suffered from having a mysterious "group antagonist" also. Give us a solid villain, someone with character and menace, not a shadowy organization.
Fair warning: There'll be spoilers in this thread. That's probably the best way to address various problems with the show. So don't read on if you haven't watched it and don't want it spoiled for you.
First, some words on the "whitewashing" controversy that has attached itself to the show.
I really don't want this thread to turn into a heated debate about this; but that seems to be a real issue with the show so....
I'm ambivalent.
The original comic featured a white, heterosexual man orphaned as a child in a plane accident in the Himalayas, discovered by monks from a mystical city, and trained in the martial arts. So the show stays true to that origin. Plus, the idea that martial arts is "an Asian thing" and therefore the character should be played by an Asian/Asian-American actor seems to me to be inherently racist: martial arts are an art, and anyone can learn the art. There's a scene where Danny Rand "teaches" the character Colleen Wing, a Japanese-American master martial artist, in her own dojo—some think this is rubbing salt in the wound, but I'm thinking this is Iron Fist, supposedly the or one of the best martial artists in the Marvel Universe, so yeah, he should be a better martial artist than just about everyone he meets, regardless of the ethnic or racial backgrounds.
BUT on the other hand...One could say that Marvel's original comic creation was a case of whitewashing, itself, so the fact that this show follows the original is not much of an argument. One could also say that the issue isn't about race so much as culture; i.e., the martial arts Danny uses have an Asian origin, and it'd make more sense to have an Asian-American play the role rather than have a white Westerner co-opt the cultural element. I would still quibble—martial arts is an art, and the ability to be a great martial artist is not something genetically encoded, and the art has crossed national and regional boundaries already—but all-in-all I kinda wish Marvel had foreseen the controversy and had used someone other than a white character for Iron Fist. Marvel has diverged from its comic origins before and could have done so now. But a part of me wishes they'd not only foreseen the controversy, they'd decided to go with a Latino, Samoan, or Native American actor, heh.
For me, Danny Rand's race was not an issue, although I do regret the controversy.
The actor's acting chops were not an issue ultimately.
Mediocre Fighting
But his lack of martial arts skills was an issue—a major issue. Not being in the movie industry myself, I can't really say whether this is more of an issue with cinematography and choreography instead. But the fighting in this show was mediocre at best, and rather silly at worst.
So that would be point one for me against the show. This is Iron Fist, fer goodness' sake, and he's supposed to be a great martial artist. He killed a mythical dragon bare-handed....sometime before the show even starts. I've watched so many martial arts movies, one of my favorite genres, and most of them featured much, much better fighting than Iron Fist. Look, there's something great about seeing Spider-man swinging for the first time, Daredevil overcoming incredible odds in clever and stunning ways, etc. That's what you are supposed to do with these characters: Make them incredible-but-still-credible. But the fighting in Iron Fist sucked. What I wouldn't have given to have the choreographers from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon work on this show; or, just about anyone from the Hong Kong industry. Gosh, I'd even have been happy with Quentin Tarantino directing, because at least he understands the need for spectacle and thrilling fights.
So I think that Finn Jones's lack of martial arts training & proficiency was a major issue, but I can't really lay all the blame on him. Casting director gets that, maybe, or some combination of that and director/cinematographer/choreographer.
Who're we fighting?
Point two against the show, and I really, really wish Marvel would hear this: Don't change the villain or primary antagonist during a 13-episode show. And please, please don't change this twice, as they did here. There was Madame Gao. Then, nope, nope, she's just going to give in and disappear after the buildup, and then it's going to be Bakuto and a different (primary?) sect of The Hand. But, nope, nope, he's going to be killed by Colleen Wing—nothin' to do with Iron Fist, eh?—and just disappear. And at the very end it's Harold Meachum after all.
In my opinion, the first season of Daredevil got it right: You pick your villain, introduce him early, and work the whole season to build up to the final showdown. Jessica Jones also got this right. But Luke Cage didn't; had to have a mid-stream switcheroo. And Iron Fist got it so, so wrong.
My impression is that the creators of the show thought they'd be clever in doing these switcheroos. But it really saps the energy, the momentum, and....
What kind of show is this?
Heck, the fighting, hero-antagonist struggle, etc., are really, really beside the point after all. This is a character story, right? So that's why Colleen Wing had to kill Bakuto: her character arc herp derp. And that's why Danny Rand had to be mopey, display uber amounts of internal turmoil (real "martial arts master" there, eh, heh heh), and why the show couldn't make up its mind about whether its title was truly Iron Fist or instead Rand Corporation or maybe Kun Lun or....The Danny and Colleen Love Show.
Also, this lack of focus is the origin of one common criticism that critics have made: The show goes nowhere, just stumbles along, starts lethargically and still manages to peter out.
OK. So those are my biggest problems with the show.
I could add the campy factors, like those three silly/ridiculous opponents Gao had Danny fight or, later, the Drunken Master nod. But a part of me kinda liked those, or could buy those no problem had everything else been better. (Secretly, I enjoyed the Drunken Master nod, heh.)
But there were some things I liked about it. I think I enjoyed Ward Meachum the most in the show, and a part of me wishes this Netflix exclusive had really been called The Rand Corporation. Heck, it almost was.
And Iron Fist benefits from association. The Defenders* and all that. The inclusion of Claire Temple and Jeri Hogarth. (I almost want a miniseries featuring all, and only, the female characters from Netflix's Marvel series.) So it was mediocre, overall, but not absolutely wretched, imo.
______
*Honorable Mention Rant: Seriously, someone tell Marvel we simply don't care about The Hand. DD S2 suffered from having a mysterious "group antagonist" also. Give us a solid villain, someone with character and menace, not a shadowy organization.
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Acolyte
Myth Weaver
