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Man of Steel > Iron Man

Discussion in 'Film & Television' started by Mindfire, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. Mindfire

    Mindfire Istar

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    Actually, the dark Batman was the original version. He even carried a gun in his first few appearances (and shot people with it!). The Adam West style Batman came later to make the character more kid-friendly and soon after that Batman's sidekick Robin was introduced. Eventually the colorful, kid-friendly version fell out of style and Batman went back to his roots as a detective and dark avenger (minus the gun obviously), and that version of the character has been the most popular ever since.
     
  2. Reaver

    Reaver Kwisatz Haderach Moderator

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    I think that as a whole, society's perception of superheros is skewed. We're talking about fictional characters in fictional worlds. If these characters existed in reality, they would be pariahs; hated by most people because they think they have the right to operate outside our laws.


    In the make-believe world of comics, might equals right. In the real world, might doesn't equal right. Apply that any way you want to, be it a government, country or any other geo-politic, socio-economic entity. Just because you have the ability to impose your will on those weaker than you doesn't mean you should.
     
  3. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    This is why I like goody-gumdrops Supes. There are plenty of dark heroes that I like, but Superman is extreme in terms of goodness and power, and that will always be his thing. You can call him cheap, flat, OP'd and boring for that. You don't have to like him. Just don't change him or expect him to change.

    ...well, maybe you can expect it. I'm still mildly PO'd by Superman's kid being raised by an unwitting stepdad. Really? So he slept with Miss Lane, what, the day after her one night stand with Superman? Suddenly the girl who waited four movies to get it on with her Mr. Perfect invites her boss' nephew into her bed. Did she know Superman was flaking out in space somewhere, as opposed to just being busy fighting crime in other continents? Did she consider that the kid might not be What's-His-Face's? Did no one suspect anything when the kid could walk at three months, lift his own weight at eight weeks old, fly at five months old, heat his milk bottle by staring at it...? He's not an X-Man. (X-Boy?) Throwing a piano at the bad guy couldn't have been his first display of superpowers.
     
  4. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    True.

    I think Spiderman and Batman do an okay job portraying that reality, though in a comic-booky way where you know the cops will secretly root for the vigilantes because they're the heroes of the story.

    In Watchmen, The Comedian was a bully and let his power go to his head. They all were guilty of that to different extents. I hated Dr. Manhattan! I mean in a good way--I love the story. He's a guy who could've been Superman, but chose not to. He justifies his action or lack thereof, and really, he's even more overpowered than Superman. He kills with a thought and can reassemble his body after being blown to bits.
     
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  5. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    I don't know about that. SpiderMan and X-Men both did very well at the same time as Batman the Animated Series, and the Avengers and other Marvel series have been doing pretty well for the Disney channel. Warner Bros. had more experience and better connections than "Marvel Animations," and I think that's more what their awards were for, and why they continued on the Cartoon Network while Marvel didn't.

    I enjoyed Batman and Batman Beyond, but I still find the Superman and Justice League unwatchable. Yet I put on all the Avengers/Marvel Animations from Netflix for my kids, and I enjoy those as much as most of the shows I watch.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  6. Shockley

    Shockley Maester

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    As to the question on Marvel versus DC:

    I tend to prefer the DC characters, and that can be explained by the stereotype that Marvel's heroes are flawed and DC's are not. They're both flawed, the difference is that DC's characters have internalized their flaws into a fifty year stream of content and the Marvel characters parade their flaws through town square.

    Take, for example, Superman. Yes, he's incredibly powerful (which is why he fights guys like Doomsday and Lex Luthor rather than street thugs, a la Batman) and morally upright, but we've had years of that character being challenged. For instance, until the most recent reset, Superman had been having a moral crisis for nearly a decade because he had murdered General Zod to save the world. It was an alternate Zod and no one really cared, but it bothered the character and drove it to new levels.

    There was also a recent Superman story where he was having to deal with the fact that he was nearly all-powerful and still had to live in a world where he could not stop death, where bad things still happened, where he didn't even so much as have the time to walk around and tell unknowing people to get their hearts/lungs/whatever checked out because he could see their illnesses. All of this was done with Lois Lane in the background, growing increasingly frustrated by Superman's apparent infertility/inability to breed with humans.

    So that we have this conflicted character with a legitimately nuanced situation, yet everyone immediately jumps to the 'boy scout' idea of the character. I think that's just a sign of how well Dc has played Supes' faults.
     
  7. Reaver

    Reaver Kwisatz Haderach Moderator

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    I think The Watchmen are great. If ever there were a "real" bunch of comic book characters, it's them. Rorschach is my favorite amongst them.
     
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  8. Mindfire

    Mindfire Istar

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    You must be an oddity, because everyone I know has the opposite opinion. Justice League was a masterpiece. And while Superman's series wasn't quite as good as Batman's it was still good. Probably a matter of preference. I never liked Marvel's animated series in the 90s. They all had this weird rubbery style of animation I just couldn't like. All their other series have never been able to draw my interest.
     
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  9. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    Rorschach is easily on several of my top ten lists. #1 on the superhero list. On the way home from work, I was thinking about the prison scene. He's awesome!
     
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  10. Reaver

    Reaver Kwisatz Haderach Moderator

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    I must be an oddity too because the only DC cartoon I ever liked is SUPER FRIENDS (the pre-lame ass Wonder Twin years, of course).

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  11. Reaver

    Reaver Kwisatz Haderach Moderator

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    That was a phenomenal part of the movie! "Give me back my face!!!!"
     
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  12. Mindfire

    Mindfire Istar

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    You know, there's a Justice League episode where they make fun of the Wonder Twins? Two actually. In one episode, one of the heroes, I think Flash, accidentally demolishes a cardboard cutout of the Wonder Twins. And later in the series, the Justice League fights a group of wannabe heroes who are based on the lame original Superfriends characters. And the Wonder Twin expies have their butts handed to them... by Aquaman. They tried to drown him. The idiots.



    Anyhow, I thought the Superfriends were okay, but their version of Batman was kinda lame.

    And speaking of Batman, not liking Batman the Animated Series? HERESY.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2017
  13. Reaver

    Reaver Kwisatz Haderach Moderator

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    Well, by the time that BATMAN: The Animated Series debuted, I was kinda busy playing soldier in Bosnia. Needless to say, I never knew it existed until a few years ago and never got into it. The only cartoon I watch these days is South Park.
     
  14. Mindfire

    Mindfire Istar

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    Well, you get a free pass then, I guess. But you should check it out. Even a couple decades later it still holds up.
     
  15. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    I just changed my quote to the one I used to use on Capcom's forum. Rorschach had the best lines! At least he could beat Dr. Blue Wang verbally.
     
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  16. Reaver

    Reaver Kwisatz Haderach Moderator

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    Heh..blue wang.
     
  17. wordwalker

    wordwalker Auror

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    Yeah, you could compare Avengers to Justice League. But on the one hand, there's no concept so good the wrong people won't get their turn to debase it (Batman Forever) or so bad the right vision couldn't uplift it (Galactica). And on the other hand... behind what story does or doesn't work, there are some levels one roster will always outdo the other.

    Thor is a lot like Superman with a bit of Wonder Woman's origin. (But, Wonder Woman is Superman with Wonder Woman's origin too-- at least, her other difference has meant more to the real world than to her presence in comics.)

    And yet, even though Thor actually is a god, Superman's the one who's played like one. But when he's watchable it's when they play that off his human side and make us wonder if he really can keep saving and hiding in the world without something coming apart.

    And, if Iron Man is pure iconic genius and Captain America is raw courage, Batman is both, wrapped up in a black cape of "and you'll believe it!"

    --Maybe that's all it really is. Superman and Batman have had some terrible movies, comics, and so on, but they've been out there so long and had the potential to be so elemental, they mean more than the rest because they say they mean more.

    Or part of us always hopes they will, each time they try to put a project together for one. C'mon, Zack...

    (Hmm, ever notice how much Thor's classic costume... he's got the helmet and all that hair, but is that so we don't quite admit he's still the only other hero in blue with a red cape plus bare face and hands...)
     
  18. Shockley

    Shockley Maester

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    If Thor is a direct rip of any superhero, it's not Superman - It's Captain Marvel. Then again, Captain Marvel is just a Superman ripoff... But still, he's more directly Captain Marvel.
     
  19. Reaver

    Reaver Kwisatz Haderach Moderator

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    I always thought it was funny how DC bought the rights to Captain Marvel (SHAZAM!) and then killed him off. (SHAZAM!)

    Dammit. I can't even type the word without turning into Captain Marvel.
     
  20. wordwalker

    wordwalker Auror

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    But isn't Superman a ripoff of Thor? (and Hercules and Gilgamesh)?

    Guess I was thinking less of what's "original" and more of how well someone used that concept. Almost all of them do fine, but the Big Big Two have still built themselves up to the Big Big Two.
     
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