glutton
Inkling
My point was that if she isn't recaptured and instead decides to go back to save him perhaps after meeting up with her rescuers, it would make her seem more proactive with the shift in goal...
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On "Proactive" versus "Reactive" Proagonists
- Thread starter Ireth
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My point was that if she isn't recaptured and instead decides to go back to save him perhaps after meeting up with her rescuers, it would make her seem more proactive with the shift in goal...
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- #22
Ireth
Myth Weaver
That's a bit impossible, because at the point she escapes and is recaptured, she and everyone else believes the villain is incapacitated and, having been maimed and rendered ineligible to inherit, would give up on his ambition to take the throne. Since it's the king himself who goes to find her, as well as the above reason, no one suspects the prince to have followed until the moment he stabs his father in the back (at which point the prince is invisible, so he can't have been caught prior).
Once the prince is done away with, the MC does have a moment of hesitation on whether or not to help the king, and she ultimately chooses to do so despite the king wanting her dead for maiming the prince. It works in her favor during the resolution, as helping the king garnered her and her family a life-debt, which the king repays once he recovers a bit by letting them leave Faerie safely.
glutton
Inkling
I don't know if this is a bit too blunt, but you keep saying stuff is 'impossible' when you're the writer... I think you're making things too difficult for yourself by viewing aspects of the story as set in stone when they aren't. It doesn't seem hard at all to justify her not believing he will give up his ambition or stay incapacitated for long. Obviously he does neither, all it would take is for her to be a bit pessimistic to continue suspecting/fearing he will commit more evil deeds.
In fact without knowing any other context, it makes her seem naive to so easily believe he will give up.
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- #24
Ireth
Myth Weaver
As far as anyone knows, the prince is unconscious in the infirmary of the king's castle, in no state to harm anyone. And the MC is more than ready to wash her hands of the whole thing and go home. Even if I did have her and her family decide to go back, they're not given time to do so before the king finds them and the prince's final act of villainy happens. So really it's a moot point.
glutton
Inkling
He isn't even imprisoned, he's just injured and she has no idea how long he will stay that way or how capable he will be of acting when he wakes up. Her being afraid he will recover and come after her or continue his plot is really not hard to justify at all.
Again, you're the writer, you're still saying events as they happen are the only way they can when you clearly have the power to change them. If you don't want to fine but they are not unchangeable to make it a 'moot point'.
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- #26
Ireth
Myth Weaver
I'm speaking with regards to the logic of the story as it stands, disregarding authorial omnipotence for the moment. Fear or no fear on the part of the MC, there is no time for her to be proactive before the king and prince show up again.
I think this argument is wearing thin.
glutton
Inkling
But my whole point is that you can change the story to have the king not catch up to her so fast...
- Thread starter
- #28
Ireth
Myth Weaver
Even if I do that, it would not work out well for the MC. She's an escapee from prison, a fugitive. Going back of her own will would mean she's recaptured on sight and executed immediately (since she was already wanted dead for maiming the prince). And her family would probably be imprisoned as well.
Ireth, what is your goal for this story? Traditional publishing? Self publishing? What are you hoping to achieve? I know you have a query blurb out there... Are you still hoping for traditional publishing?
glutton
Inkling
That makes sense, but that could be a reason why she needs her other friends to help her get to the king and warn/save him without being caught first. I suppose it might be a lot of work to come up with a whole new endgame scenario though.
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- #31
Ireth
Myth Weaver
Yes, I am still hoping for traditional publishing. Right now I'm working on polishing the last two chapters of the story (since I've already done some substantial revising recently) so my beta reader can look them over before I start querying.
Ok, so I haven't read your story at all, so I can't really offer suggestions, but based on the info you have given I have a few thoughts:
1) There is a difference between a passive MC and a reactive MC. Usually, a MC is reactive for the first half of the story. Here they were, going about their normal lives, when BAM, something knocks them off their feet and sends them sprawling. The first half of a book is usually them trying to orient themselves again and try to solve the problem. But usually they haven't learned enough yet about themselves and the situation in order to really be effective, so they are re-acting, and usually making choices out of fear.
At the midpoint they usually learn something, or something goes terribly wrong with their plan and they realize what they have been missing and now have some sort of answer or plan, so they move from acting in fear and re-acting, to moving with courage and being more active.
A Reactive Protagonist Doesn't Have to Be a Passive Protagonist! Discover the Difference - Helping Writers Become Authors
So reactive for the first part of the story can be Ok and good. Now what you don't want is a passive MC, and I'm wondering if this is what your betas are referring to. A passive character is one that sort of sits back while others do the work. So she may have a goal to escape, and she may make plans to escape, but during the course of the story it is others doing the work for her or coincidences occur where she gets out of actually having to do anything or make any hard choices (I think this is what Glutton is getting at with the King... Oh, the King is searching for her and finds her, so she didn't have to actually do any work. This makes the King the active character and her the passive character.) Again, I haven't read it, so I can't be too sure.
2) Betas are amazing to a point, and if many of them are telling you the same thing it might be a good idea to listen. However, at some point, you are going to want to pay a real editor to have a look. If they also tell you the same thing, you need to make changes before trying to submit it anywhere. Also, while betas can be amazing, at some point you have to say "No" if you really feel like the story is how you need it to be. However, keep in mind that once you have put it out there to an agent, you can't explain your choices. No agent is going to ask you why you did A instead of B and let you argue your choice.
1) There is a difference between a passive MC and a reactive MC. Usually, a MC is reactive for the first half of the story. Here they were, going about their normal lives, when BAM, something knocks them off their feet and sends them sprawling. The first half of a book is usually them trying to orient themselves again and try to solve the problem. But usually they haven't learned enough yet about themselves and the situation in order to really be effective, so they are re-acting, and usually making choices out of fear.
At the midpoint they usually learn something, or something goes terribly wrong with their plan and they realize what they have been missing and now have some sort of answer or plan, so they move from acting in fear and re-acting, to moving with courage and being more active.
A Reactive Protagonist Doesn't Have to Be a Passive Protagonist! Discover the Difference - Helping Writers Become Authors
So reactive for the first part of the story can be Ok and good. Now what you don't want is a passive MC, and I'm wondering if this is what your betas are referring to. A passive character is one that sort of sits back while others do the work. So she may have a goal to escape, and she may make plans to escape, but during the course of the story it is others doing the work for her or coincidences occur where she gets out of actually having to do anything or make any hard choices (I think this is what Glutton is getting at with the King... Oh, the King is searching for her and finds her, so she didn't have to actually do any work. This makes the King the active character and her the passive character.) Again, I haven't read it, so I can't be too sure.
2) Betas are amazing to a point, and if many of them are telling you the same thing it might be a good idea to listen. However, at some point, you are going to want to pay a real editor to have a look. If they also tell you the same thing, you need to make changes before trying to submit it anywhere. Also, while betas can be amazing, at some point you have to say "No" if you really feel like the story is how you need it to be. However, keep in mind that once you have put it out there to an agent, you can't explain your choices. No agent is going to ask you why you did A instead of B and let you argue your choice.
So if I use Gladiator as an example,
for the first half Maximus is re-acting. He runs from his attackers, then is captured and made into a slave. He has very little control over this entire situation, and even when he is a gladiator he has very little control other than simply 'survival'. He has a plan (get back at Lucious) but how he will acheive that plan? No clue. He decides to try to win the hearts of the crowd and wins every competition so that he might be able to win his freedom. (So he is still an active member of his own story, and he is still activly moving forward and fighting his own battles and trying to acheive his own plan).
At the half way mark things change. He bumps into his old servant who tells him that the other soldiers are waiting for him and will follow him, and he gets his little statues back. He runs into Lucilla who asks him to help her defeat Lucius with the Senate.. Stakes have been raised. Now this is not just about Maximus and revenge and re-acting, this is about working together with others to free Rome itself from a terrible tyrant. Now Maximus is acting in courage, moving forward with a real plan other than simple revenge.
for the first half Maximus is re-acting. He runs from his attackers, then is captured and made into a slave. He has very little control over this entire situation, and even when he is a gladiator he has very little control other than simply 'survival'. He has a plan (get back at Lucious) but how he will acheive that plan? No clue. He decides to try to win the hearts of the crowd and wins every competition so that he might be able to win his freedom. (So he is still an active member of his own story, and he is still activly moving forward and fighting his own battles and trying to acheive his own plan).
At the half way mark things change. He bumps into his old servant who tells him that the other soldiers are waiting for him and will follow him, and he gets his little statues back. He runs into Lucilla who asks him to help her defeat Lucius with the Senate.. Stakes have been raised. Now this is not just about Maximus and revenge and re-acting, this is about working together with others to free Rome itself from a terrible tyrant. Now Maximus is acting in courage, moving forward with a real plan other than simple revenge.
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- #34
Ireth
Myth Weaver
I still don't think my MC is passive at all. The only time she could be said to "sit back while others do the work" is when the princess goes out to find the MC's family, and that's only after the MC begged to go with her and was denied. Even then, the MC knows she has to do what she can for herself, and makes with the escaping (repeatedly), rather than sit around and wait for her family to come to her. I don't think your example with the king at the end of the story showcases the idea of a "passive" protagonist. Other people can be active at the same time as the MC without taking away from the MC's activeness.
Ireth, I already said I don't know your story. I'm simply saying that I wonder if that is where Glutton is going with that.
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- #36
Ireth
Myth Weaver
And I've said already that this debate is wearing thin. I think it's time to leave it be.
C
Chessie
Guest
Ireth. Could I just make a quick suggestion though? How about just letting the story be and start writing its sequel? You don't have to answer that here if you don't want to.
Edit: wanted to add that having a sequel in the works would help your quest for representation and distract you from the waiting process.
Edit: wanted to add that having a sequel in the works would help your quest for representation and distract you from the waiting process.
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- #38
Ireth
Myth Weaver
Thanks, Chester. Unfortunately I'm not sure the resolution of this story allows for a sequel; the few threads I leave untied (i.e. the punishment impending for the Fae who aid the MC in her escape from the prince) are minor. This is pretty solidly a standalone novel.
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