Orc females

[Fettju]

I am building a story where orcs are the wild/animalistic side of man that have been exorcised by a wizard or a cult and given physical shape by some reason.

But I don't know how the orc females should be. How is the feminine side of the psyche when it is all animalistic and savage?

 

[pmmg]

They play for the strongest male and turn on each other for station.

 

[Fettju]

turn on each other

As in violently? Wouldn't that be a male trait? To fight over the females?

 

[pmmg]

Women tend to conduct warfare against rivals by causing reputational damage and working in a game of social status men are usually unaware of. They might get violent but more likely they will hurt others with words.

 

[Fettju]

But if they are not offensively violent and not gaming, because they are the savage side of the human? More animal like.

My idea of orc males are that they challenge each other to show bravery and strength, but weaker orcs are just trampled. Like the weaker wolf or monkey in the pack, the weakest orc is pushed down and threatened all the time.
If a human male comes, they kill and eat him if he shows weakness, but of he shows strength they fight him one on one to see how strong he is compared to them.

I am thinking of the stereotype of nomadic step people, shitting and pissing in the saddle in their pants, spitting and drooling when they eat, always cursing and growling and either punching or killing someone, or challenging someone equal or better.
It is the masculine when it has no actual strength, just the violent savage part.
What would the corresponding of the feminine be? I don't want it to be the same as the male, and I also don't want it to be social, or in any way intelligent.

My story will use the unreliable narrator, so in-story facts are conflicting, but the essence of my orc is of savage wild spirit. Think of indigenous people like north american indians or maoris, but without the cultural and religious part, only the hunting and the sneaking and the warring.
For example, there is a tribe of humans who are driven into a never ending desert, and they bring with them a water sprite of sorts, a very minor female deity of a stream or a spring of their homeland, that will grow into a major goddess as they discover (or somehow dig or make) wells/springs and oasis. That water sprite in reality is a female orc.
But if I cannot come up with an archetype of a savage animalistic femininity that is not violent and not gossiping, I will do it in another way, and just have male orcs and no females.

 

[Rexenm]

So are the orcs doppelgängers, or have been repressed? If a cult took the arcane away, then it would stand to reason that these men were bad. If it were a wizard, it would be some magnanimous reason. If they were separated, then it would have to do with whether it were a romance or not. To the spirit of a female orc, taking into account the violence, I refer to some lyrics from Twenty-Twenty Surgery - Taking Back Sunday, “Dollar signs doll up, a picture perfect point of view,” because I was thinking of this scenario. If a typical woman in fantasy is royal and weak, then perhaps an orc would be vile and strong, having solidarity rather than morality.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Animalistic, have you ever seen hens fight? They're as vicious as roosters, just lacking the spurs. Female turkeys... Yikes. The pecking order in social situations with female animals can be nasty. Domesticated cats... Our boss mom kitty was wicked. Horses? They have a pecking order too outside of the stallion in the lead. Do NOT get in the middle of that one. What makes a horse walk away might kill a human, heh heh.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I agree with Demesnedenoir that women can be just as violent and nasty as men can be. No reason why you can't have female orcs fight and establish a peckinig order.

If anything, if orcs have been created from spirits, then physical strength how humans know it doesn't feature into it. Instead it would be the strength of the spirit that determines the strength of the orc. And there's no reason why female spirits can't be as strong as males ones. Thus no reason why female orcs would be weaker. I mean, have you ever seen a mother bear protect her cub? Or seen women fight each other? They can get nasty. Just as much so, or maybe even more so than men.

 

[Finchbearer]

I think it’s an interesting question because it challenges our way of thinking about femininity. Tolkien only ever made male orcs because it was probably easier for him to leave out those messy details, how they interact with each other and mate. It’s much easier to write about horrible creatures when they’re all one blob ‘male’ gender and just fight and cause havoc. It probably wasn’t ton Tolkien’s mind to think about ablutions…but all living creatures need to eat, sleep and

 

[Fettju]

whether it were a romance or not

What?

are the orcs doppelgängers, or have been repressed

No, there is a human empire, and some fanatical wizard or fanatical cult wanted to make ascend this empire by purifying humanity itself (or at least the humans of the empire) by removing all "unhuman" parts of the soul of humanity. The savage part of humanity is behind all problems. So removing this souns like a good and holy idea.
But humanity wasn't purified, and instead a new kind of being was now there, whose defining trait was just that which was supposed to be erased from all humans (in the empire at least)

 

[Fettju]

an orc would be vile and strong, having solidarity rather than morality

Hmm, how would that look? Vile strong and loyal to the group? Like a grandmotherly hag?

 

[Fettju]

have you ever seen hens fight? They're as vicious as roosters

Yes, but I am trying to find something that is not that, and still wild.

 

[Fettju]

Tolkien only ever made male orcs because it was probably easier for him to leave out those messy details

Hmm yes that makes sense.
Interesting btw Lord of the rings. I have never come to understand how the ring makes Sauron stronger. I think Tolkien had quite a few holes in his story.

 

[Finchbearer]

Yep it’s almost as if Tolkien created a rich world but forgot to write a compelling plot.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Good luck on ever writing such a successful listless plot with so many story holes, heh heh.

 

[Finchbearer]

I think it’s of it’s time - would it have as much success today? I’m not so sure, but that wouldn’t makes sense because Tolkien paved the way for every classic fantasy writer after him.

 

[CupofJoe]

After the Council at Rivendell, all they really needed to go was convince the Eagles to fly to Mordor and drop the ring in from above.* The flying Wraith don't appear until months after the crossing of the ford. I think there would have been time. And the LotR would have been about 700 pages shorter.
* Not saying that the near certain suicide trip would have appealed to the Eagles. But they could have at least asked.

 

[Finchbearer]

Lord of the Rings: A Short Story

 

[Demesnedenoir]

The Eagles are isolationists who never join wars until needed or dramatically appropriate.

Phenoms tend to be products of their time. LoTR wasn't an amazing success until many years after publication and without the hype you'd see today. It's always interesting to think about how much greatness is a product of its period from Star Wars to Harry Potter to Dickens. Now, I will give Dickens the nod because of A Christmas Carol, there is something about that story that carries over time like few other stories do on a literary and pop level. Tolkien appears to be reaching that level, which can only be judged well beyond the creator's death.

Sadly, I won't live long to see what happens to the more recent enduring pop phenoms, but you can kind of see the writing on the wall for things like Twilight and Hunger Games. Of course, movies pushed them as much or more than books... Harry Potter books will be interesting. I think they suck, but the level of phenom they reached could propel them for a long time... at least until Terminators rule the world. I doubt they'll enjoy Potter.

 

[Finchbearer]

I enjoyed reading Harry Potter when I was the appropriate age group to read them. The first one came out when I was eleven and I enjoyed it, but it wasn’t mind blowing or anything. The better memories I have are being read The Hobbit as a child by one of my parents, and reading The Chronicles of Narnia and things like Treasure Island. They were mind blowing for sure to my young mind, and still are today.