Political Correctness in Fantasy

[Amanita]

Browsing through the thread about conflict in forums, I've been reminded of a few hot discussions happening over at the NaNoWriMo-forums this year. The subjects where political correctness especially towards various ethnic groups and sexual orientations.
The essence of those discussions seemed to be that a fantasy cast has to include all groups relevant in an an US city or it's "discrimnation via exclusion." This is fine in a fantasy story set in a modern day American city but in my opinion it makes no sense at all in an invented world. For me, it's important that invented cultures make sense within the context of the story. To have a society like it exists in the USA make sense in an invented world, many factors come into, you probably know better what they are than I do. There's no reason whatsoever that the relationship between people of different skin colour has to be the same it is in our own world. And yet, if you talk about having something else, accusations of being "colour-blind" and so on are being made.

At the moment, I'm having different ethnic groups in my own world, but I'm considering to change that, because I'm worried about offending someone, which seems to be happening very easily, at least to the people using the NaNo-forums.
Even the number of terms for people of skin tone other than white that are deemed offensive there is astonishing. In some cases, I really wouldn't have expected this, so if I'm unsing any offensive term, please tell, but don't be offended, I didn't mean it to be.
On the other hand, where homosexuals are concerned terms like "quiltbag" which I would have seen as a slur seem to be accepted. Not knowing homosexuals, transsexuals and so on myself, I'm not really interested in putting much time into the research necessary to include one of them as a main character in a realistic and inoffensive fashion even though this isn't relevant to the plot at all. In this case, I think it's better for everyone involved if people with acutal experience describe these feelings and there's no need to demand everyone else to do it as has been done by the NaNos.

Now I'm treading into even more dangerous territory: What's your opinion on fantasy cultures who display a certain amount of racism and still aren't being viewed as completely evil? In the case of misogynism, this seems to be widely accepted, fantasy societes without it are much rarer than those where it exists as if this were how things should be. Racism seems to be a different matter though.
I have a tendency of simply lettting cultures with different values and characters with different opinions stand side by side without giving authoral moral judgement on their beliefs. Two of my countries forbid or strictly limit immigration, one of them doesn't accept foreigners as citizens at all, the other only when rather harsh conditions are being met. They don't direct this against certain skin tones though, but against everyone who isn't one of them. In another country, ethnicity doesn't matter at all, everyone is being judged by their own behaviour. (Or by the amount of money they own or make...)
Would you see this as a problem and how are you dealing with it yourselves?

 

[TWErvin2]

You're not going to be able to please everybody no matter what you include or exclude from your works.

I just write the story I want to tell. A good story will find an audience.

Your content may differ from work to work depending on the theme(s) or plotline(s), or the characters. I personally wouldn't base what I wrote on what some folks said, promoted, complained about on a NaNoWriMo forum if it's not something that interests you or your anticiapted audience.

There is such broad diversity out there based on, if nothing else, the sheer number of authors and series and novels and worlds created that everyone should be able to find a place where their writing fits and every reader should be able to find what they're looking for, and avoid what they dislike or feel uncomfortable with.

There's plenty of room for works that foucs on being politically correct and for those that don't have that as their focus.

That's my two cents.

 

[Telcontar]

I have a deep and abiding dislike for political correctness. Also, saying that any author must include this or that group in an invented world is absolutely stupid. For one, it's an invented world - we have every right to include whatever we wish. Second, there are an infinite number of subdivisions to these various groups and ethnicity and orientations. Impossible to 'include' them all.

I think racism is a likely trait for most early cultures, if they bear any resemblance at all to humans. It's an outgrowth of evolutionary elitism - you want your own species to survive. After that, your race. After that, further divisions, right down to family and self. Racism is outmoded and ugly in the modern world, because we should be able to think about such base instincts - that doesn't mean it wouldn't occur in the relatively early societies depicted in most fantasy. I have a story where many cultures portray deep and institutionalized racism. Neither one is "evil." They're just human.

If for some weird reason somebody is offended by that, I quite simply don't care.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

Political correctness is what tells us it's not okay to call black people "ni*****". When it goes wrong is when someone from group A says that you're not allowed to call group B "C", even if the members of group B don't care. You can tell it's gone overboard when the phrase, "Someone might get offended" is uttered, even if nobody has actually gotten offended yet.

In general, though, if someone tells you that a term is offensive to them, how much responsibility do you bear not to use that term? It's not so clear-cut as to say "political correctness is bad." Nobody's going to argue about the n-word, but if a guy says to you that he doesn't want to be called a "man," because that term offends him, and he wants to only be referred to as a "male," would you do it? (Assume for the moment that he's being sincere and it's not some kind of game, ploy, or prank.) It'd be easy to ignore just one dude asking that. What if ten guys ask the same thing? A thousand? A million? It becomes a movement? How many people have to be offended by a term before you bear some moral responsibility to listen to what they ask?

 

[sashamerideth]

I think that political incorrectness belongs in certain fantasy settings, especially with a medieval setting. The cultures and social aspects are just different than today.

Sent from my Blade using Forum Runner

 

[Steerpike]

I don't like political correctness in literature. Be true to your story, and don't give political correctness much thought.

 

[Kit]

In a story, if one character calls another character a N_____, that's part of the story. If the AUTHOR calls a character a N____ (as in "Then the N_____ walked across the street" when this is being presented as narration, as opposed to being presented as evesdropping on a character's thoughts) that's when I would get offended.

Everybody's got the right to their opinions, including the belief that people are N____s.... but if it annoys me enough, I will not want to read that person's stuff, or recommend it, or spend my money on it.

 

[Steerpike]

In a story, if one character calls another character a N_____, that's part of the story. If the AUTHOR calls a character a N____ (as in "Then the N_____ walked across the street" when this is being presented as narration, as opposed to being presented as evesdropping on a character's thoughts) that's when I would get offended.

You still have to be able to distinguish the author from the narrator. Just because something isn't presented in dialogue doesn't mean it is the author speaking or presenting an opinion. The narrator might not be a very nice person.

 

[Kit]

That is true, that makes it a little harder to pinpoint sometimes. The narrator, though, is still a *character*.

 

[Steerpike]

That is true, that makes it a little harder to pinpoint sometimes. The narrator, though, is still a *character*.

True. I suppose I'd be hesitant to assume at any time that something presented in a work of fiction, even in narration, is necessarily reflecting the viewpoint of the author.

 

[Aegrus]

I don't like offensive writing when it attacks my group- but that's fine. I'll simply stop reading if I'm offended. Many books are given much more depth if the characters have rich, varied, and even politically incorrect qualities. So I say, just ignore political correctness.

However, as stated above, a narrator instead of a character being politically incorrect doesn't have much of a point, so I personally will avoid that.

 

[Steerpike]

However, as stated above, a narrator instead of a character being politically incorrect doesn't have much of a point, so I personally will avoid that.

I disagree with this as well. A narrator being politically incorrect doesn't have a point? Why not? Can you elaborate on that?

 

[myrddin173]

This reminds me of a "discussion" a ran across several years ago. It was on the IMDb forums for the Lord of the Rings movie and one individual was slamming them because their were no members of minorities among the cast. Which is true the cast is "white" but it wouldn't have made sense with, as he wanted, "a black Aragorn and an Oriental* Gandalf" because the story is apart of a fake mythology for Britain. The discussion went on to say how nobody cares about an all-black cast but an all-white cast causes people to protest.

I think Political Correctness is okay to an extent but people have a tendency of taking it to far. In stories, the story should always come first.


*It was also lost on him that for a person upset about how the absence of minorities "Oriental" was probably not the best choice of word.

 

[Aegrus]

I disagree with this as well. A narrator being politically incorrect doesn't have a point? Why not? Can you elaborate on that?

I should have been more specific. If the narrator is not a character (such as a third person omniscient narrator, aka a disembodied voice) I think that making them politically incorrect would be distracting rather than realistic.

 

[Aegrus]

For example, "The knight rode in silence" is more to the point and meaningful than "The n***er rode in silence."

--Sorry about splitting this into two posts, my mind blanked and I forgot that there was an edit button until now. . .

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

"Oriental" was probably not the best choice of word.

My Oriental wife might have been offended by this person, and her Oriental friend who's visiting might even be so offended she'd move back the the Orient. My kids are only 50% Oriental, so they probably would only be half-offended.




In my story, which takes place on two planets, the people on the planet Pyros are mostly white; the reader eventually meets some black people. The people from Cryos are described as having Asian features (though I never use the word Asian--or Oriental).

I think, for about 30 seconds, I wondered how people would take it that I have "Asians" on one planet and white guys on the other. Then I realized that I can easily shut up anyone who calls me a bigot for this by flashing a wedding photo.

My reason for writing the races this way is inspired from having grown up in rural U.S., then having experienced "the city life" in Hong Kong. It was really like living in two different worlds for me!

PC has no effect on my decisions, though of course, I don't go out of my way to offend.

 

[ThinkerX]

I could get in a lot of trouble here by accident...

...my stories are mostly set in or at the fringes of a large quasi totalitarian, quasi roman type empire, much of whose leadership has little but contempt for their own subjects (they're actually getting ticked off because some of those 'subjects' are being upgraded to 'citizens'). Most of the imperials have a very low opinion of pretty much all other races - goblins are 'vilekin' that need to be exterminated on sight (or if you're feeling really generous, enslaved for life). Elves will dazzle you with their magic and rob you blind. The imperials have a major disregard for other humans as well - the very pale skinned, black haired kitrineese (conquored about a century and a half ago) are demon worshipping scum who need to be put in chains at birth and kept there. The black skinned folks of the jungle to the empires immediate south are 'natural slaves' (only reason said jungle was never incorporated into the empire was because the imperials who stayed there for any length of time tended to die of plague or snakebite or some such).

Plus, there are more than a few characters wandering around with chips on their shoulders the size of small mountains.

 

[mirrorrorrim]

Something I've learned recently is that when someone truly writes, she can't help baring most of whom she is to those who have the ability to read it. Gifted authors, knowingly or not, end up leaving a lot of themselves in the pages they write.

While your characters may not be aware of racism, you are, and, like it or not, that is sure to show up in your writing, regardless of whether you mean it to or not.

With that said, it's up to you whether to make it a point of your story or not to. The fact that you're dealing with the issue of immigration suggests that you intend it to be at least passingly relevent, and so your views are sure to come out. So, are you or aren't you a racist? If you aren't, be confident that your writing will reflect that. Good characters do bad things, and bad characters do good things–that's part of life, and part of any tale worth writing. In actual history, there were lots of good people who were racist, and sexist, anti-religious, anti-intellectual, anti-unintellectual, and every other manifestation of prejudice. Every person has pride within her, and prejudice is one of its most common manifestations.

To tell a good fantasy story, you don't need to have your heroes overcome all of their shortcomings, or even most of them. As long as you don't try to hide or over-justify them, most readers won't assume you condone everything you write, if you don't.

Writers, on the other hand, are often the most prejudiced of all, especially in regard to one another. I wouldn't worry to much about what they say. Or what I do, either, since I also am a writer.

 

[mythique890]

Mirror, have you ever seen the quote in my signature? You pretty much summed it up in your post.

While I think concern for the feelings of others is a good trait to have and try never to offend if I can help it, I think the obsession with being PC in this country (can't speak for others) has gone a bit overboard. I think it's silly to call someone out for being racist because a certain race doesn't appear in their book. I live in an area where 90% of the population is white, 8% is Hispanic and a whopping 0.33% is black. Why would a native of this area think to include a black character in a story when they don't know anyone black IRL? People write about what they have experience with. That's why I think we need a mass migration of writers out of NYC, because I'm really getting tired of books and movies being set in the same place over and over and over again. Tangent.

I would expect racism in a made-up fantasy world, especially since most settings are along the lines of "long ago" when that kind of thing was more commonplace. I would be interested to see someone write a fantasy society where misandry was the norm. What on earth would that be like?

Personally, I write what I know, meaning so far most of my characters are white, and the ones that aren't white are Latin American or Polynesian.

 

[mirrorrorrim]

Mirror, have you ever seen the quote in my signature? You pretty much summed it up in your post.

While I think concern for the feelings of others is a good trait to have and try never to offend if I can help it, I think the obsession with being PC in this country (can't speak for others) has gone a bit overboard. I think it's silly to call someone out for being racist because a certain race doesn't appear in their book. I live in an area where 90% of the population is white, 8% is Hispanic and a whopping 0.33% is black. Why would a native of this area think to include a black character in a story when they don't know anyone black IRL? People write about what they have experience with. That's why I think we need a mass migration of writers out of NYC, because I'm really getting tired of books and movies being set in the same place over and over and over again. Tangent.

I would expect racism in a made-up fantasy world, especially since most settings are along the lines of "long ago" when that kind of thing was more commonplace. I would be interested to see someone write a fantasy society where misandry was the norm. What on earth would that be like?

Personally, I write what I know, meaning so far most of my characters are white, and the ones that aren't white are Latin American or Polynesian.

No, I hadn't! I love Orson Scott Card, though, so I'm not surprised he said it first (and a lot better).

And I belong to the same religion he does [can I say that here?], so it's always been interesting to me to see how his interpretations of some of our beliefs show up in his works, especially when they appear to do so unintentionally, or when they differ widely from my own interpretations.

I think that quote is what scares me most about ever being published: having my whole self out there for anyone to see or judge. I've gotten in trouble for my writing before, so I already know not everyone is going to appreciate or agree with everything I write.

On the other hand, though, that's also one of the things I would be most excited about.

But, all of that is a long way off, and half of this post (okay, probably closer to all of it) is completely unrelated to the thread topic, so, instead of going on, I'll respond to the bottom part of your post!

I think it's important to write what you know. Writing a black character without understanding what that means is, in my opinion, much more insulting than not writing one at all. Now, if you're writing in a world where no one cares about or notices skin color, that's a different matter entirely, because then there is no difference in that character's perspective. But my guess is that most of us aren't writing in those kinds of worlds.

I feel the same is true for homosexuals, members of the opposite gender, and any other group that defines itself by an unique characteristic.

This doesn't mean you can only write the exact person you are, of course. You just have to look, feel, and listen enough to have empathy for the group you are trying to write for; for different people, that entails different things.

And, of course, it's important to understand that not all members of a group are the same. The majority may deal with the same types of feelings, but how they react to them—if they do at all—will vary drastically from person to person. And, just as importantly, many members of a particular group may not consider that membership a defining characteristic at all.

That's how I feel, anyway.