Prologue length

[The Dark One]

There does seem to be an anti-prologue movement which I find bewildering.

What's more, it exits in parts of the professional publishing world. I rarely have a prologue but I did in my last book (only short - page and a half) and imagine my surprise when the editor suggested it be dumped as it didn't achieve anything. She had cc-ed the publisher, which was a mistake.

I couldn't believe it. I then explained via bullet-points the several very important things - including a plot point - that would have been ruined without the prologue.

Some people, even professionals, don't pay proper attention.

 

[The Dark One]

I've had trouble with editors a couple of times and always seems to be those new to the industry. They typically want to "impose themselves" on the book, as opposed to the more experienced editors who just want the work to be the best it can.

You have to patient with them, but also firm.

 

[Jackarandajam]

I've had trouble with editors a couple of times and always seems to be those new to the industry. They typically want to "impose themselves" on the book, as opposed to the more experienced editors who just want the work to be the best it can.

You have to patient with them, but also firm.

Ha, "sounds like SOMEBODY wants to write their OWN book. Lemme know if you need any pointers."

In school I was once asked to write an opinion piece on why one writer was better than another. I wrote on why Tennyson was better than Poe, and I think I got a good grade, but the teacher left a long, somewhat upset note in the margin of the last page suggesting a bunch of Poe's work.

I remember considering giving the comment an F for being less than 1200-1500 words and not double-spaced and turning the page back in.

 

[The Dark One]

Ha, "sounds like SOMEBODY wants to write their OWN book. Lemme know if you need any pointers."

In school I was once asked to write an opinion piece on why one writer was better than another. I wrote on why Tennyson was better than Poe, and I think I got a good grade, but the teacher left a long, somewhat upset note in the margin of the last page suggesting a bunch of Poe's work.

I remember considering giving the comment an F for being less than 1200-1500 words and not double-spaced and turning the page back in.

Hah! Grading the grader.

I've twice done that, both times to my cost.

 

[pmmg]

Thats silly. Obviously Tennyson was better than Poe.

 

[Ban]

Two out of two Americans rooting for a Brit in a match between one of the former and one of the latter. I guess poetry is the great unifier.

 

[Finchbearer]

I vote Poe

 

[Jackarandajam]

Two out of two Americans rooting for a Brit in a match between one of the former and one of the latter. I guess poetry is the great unifier.

NOW I would probably say that they are too different to be fairly compared. At the time I was just rebelling against the local national chain bookstore's half-shelf of Poe and single, 100 page "collected works" of Tennyson available.
One of the people that worked there actually bought me a 1902 complete works of Tennyson in two volumes for my birthday one year.
Yeah, I was real hellion back then.

 

[Incanus]

Where do you get the data for this?

As an author, I'd be utterly gobsmacked at the idea of a reader skipping a prologue.

Why - with the same logic - wouldn't they skip chapter 1 ... or the first ten chapters ... or every chapter until the last?

It makes absolutely no sense that a reader might skip any part of a novel.

A prologue is basically about giving the reader some info that the MCs don't have - at that point - and therefore generates some intigue/anxiety when the MC brushes up against that info later in the story.

If you bought the book but didn't read the prologue ... you just wasted your money.

I largely agree with this.

I read every word of a novel, in the order presented. I don't skim or skip.

In a way, a weak prologue is sort of helpful -- it is telling me the book is almost certainly not something I should be reading.

 

[pmmg]

I would say, the prolog is not a good place to start if you want to get a feel for the novel. Prolog's are not often in the same rhythm and flow as the rest of the story. I would look to chap 1 as a better sample. But really chapter 3-4.

Rhythm <--who decided we should spell this word this way? I can never get it right.

 

[Incanus]

I would say, the prolog is not a good place to start if you want to get a feel for the novel. Prolog's are not often in the same rhythm and flow as the rest of the story. I would look to chap 1 as a better sample. But really chapter 3-4.

Rhythm <--who decided we should spell this word this way? I can never get it right.

I can certainly see how this makes sense. Still, a prologue can give me a sense of the writer's skill and general style, and that's about all I need.

(It often takes me a few tries to spell 'rhythm' right, as I don't use the word often enough for it to stick.)

 

[Jackarandajam]

I would say, the prolog is not a good place to start if you want to get a feel for the novel. Prolog's are not often in the same rhythm and flow as the rest of the story. I would look to chap 1 as a better sample. But really chapter 3-4.

Rhythm <--who decided we should spell this word this way? I can never get it right.

You may be onto something here.
I feel like there is a bit of a stage intro choir thing going on with alot of Prologues.
Writers often use their "grown up writers voice" there, and often it just feels like the author is trying to be very dramatic and epic and isn't saying anything that he isn't going to have to say again anyway.

Alot of fantasy is Heroes Journey, which usually means at the beginning of the book the hero doesn't know what the hell is going on in the greater world and he's going to have to find out somewhere around the end of the first act.
So why am I getting 5 pages of King-James-Bible-adjacent prose about the chaining of the boogeyman and a teaser about his eventual escape when I already know that somebody is gonna have to fill Joe Chosen in on it later anyway?

I think PJ made the right choice tossing the story of the ring in at the beginning of the FOTR movie, and I also think Tolkein was a genius for putting that prologue-esque bit at the council and instead putting a somewhat optional info dump about Hobbits in its place.

To be clear, I always give the prologue a fair shake. Writer put at beginning, okay, I read first. This is just what I've noticed about alot of prologues.

 

[The Dark One]

For your entertainment, I include the prologue from my recent sci-fi novel I referred to earlier. The first editor suggested it be deleted as nothing happened. I'd be interested in other views as to whether anything is happening here...

Prologue

It had taken a great deal of time but he had finally found her.

He stood outside the building and checked the device – looking something like a smart phone. Yes, she was close.

He glanced over both shoulders, then entered the building. The reading came from above so he climbed the stairs and paused outside each door.

On the third floor the reading was much stronger, and outside Apartment 303 he pressed a button on the device, then slipped it into his pocket.

He knocked at the door.

After half a minute, he heard movement and then the door opened.

She matched her filed image perfectly, but there was no sign of recognition. She should have known him but just stood staring.

He spoke in her native speech, but there was no response.

Glancing up and down the corridor to check he was not observed, he pushed past her into the apartment.

‘What do you want?’ she asked, in the local tongue.

‘Come in and sit down,’ he told her.

She obeyed willingly enough and he pulled the device back out of his pocket, adjusted the settings and passed it over and about her. Then he sat on her sofa and examined the readings for some time, slowly shaking his head.

‘I cannot make sense of this,’ he said. ‘Something has happened.’

He got up from the sofa and started exploring the apartment while she stayed in her seat – staring patiently at nothing.

In her bedroom he found, in a drawer, a device similar to his own. He spent a few minutes going through menus, then made some adjustments and put it back in the drawer. Then he went back out to the open plan area.

‘I have set your comm for a final reckoning but will arrange to have you picked up well before.’

She made no response.

‘Your shell also…’ he said. ‘What have you done with it?’

She looked up at him, blankly, and he ran another reading.

After examining the device for a few more moments he shrugged, and repeated: ‘I will have you picked up. Be patient, and keep to yourself. This is a bad world.’

He took a last glance around the apartment, then let himself out.

She would never see him again.

 

[pmmg]

How could i know its value as a prolog without knowing the rest of the story and how it fits in?


Its deliberately vague. But it shows a world where devices and shells are meaningful and people come looking if something is off. I dont know the significance, but i feel its showing something that will matter. I dont think i am supposed to know though.


Its past tense. That may be their issue with it.

 

[Finchbearer]

For your entertainment, I include the prologue from my recent sci-fi novel I referred to earlier. The first editor suggested it be deleted as nothing happened. I'd be interested in other views as to whether anything is happening here...

Prologue

It had taken a great deal of time but he had finally found her.

He stood outside the building and checked the device – looking something like a smart phone. Yes, she was close.

He glanced over both shoulders, then entered the building. The reading came from above so he climbed the stairs and paused outside each door.

On the third floor the reading was much stronger, and outside Apartment 303 he pressed a button on the device, then slipped it into his pocket.

He knocked at the door.

After half a minute, he heard movement and then the door opened.

She matched her filed image perfectly, but there was no sign of recognition. She should have known him but just stood staring.

He spoke in her native speech, but there was no response.

Glancing up and down the corridor to check he was not observed, he pushed past her into the apartment.

‘What do you want?’ she asked, in the local tongue.

‘Come in and sit down,’ he told her.

She obeyed willingly enough and he pulled the device back out of his pocket, adjusted the settings and passed it over and about her. Then he sat on her sofa and examined the readings for some time, slowly shaking his head.

‘I cannot make sense of this,’ he said. ‘Something has happened.’

He got up from the sofa and started exploring the apartment while she stayed in her seat – staring patiently at nothing.

In her bedroom he found, in a drawer, a device similar to his own. He spent a few minutes going through menus, then made some adjustments and put it back in the drawer. Then he went back out to the open plan area.

‘I have set your comm for a final reckoning but will arrange to have you picked up well before.’

She made no response.

‘Your shell also…’ he said. ‘What have you done with it?’

She looked up at him, blankly, and he ran another reading.

After examining the device for a few more moments he shrugged, and repeated: ‘I will have you picked up. Be patient, and keep to yourself. This is a bad world.’

He took a last glance around the apartment, then let himself out.

She would never see him again.

This is weak sauce compared to your other writing IMO.

Too vague, too short, and there could be something interesting happening here but you’d need to made it clearer and longer.

 

[Joe McM]

To add my two cents, a friend who teaches writing told me that prologues are in the past. I had a prologue in my book, and I thought it important to introduce a character who is sort of an ancestor to the main character. I decided to rewrite the prologue and move a few chapters later. But as someone else wrote, go with what makes sense for you.

 

[Jackarandajam]

For your entertainment, I include the prologue from my recent sci-fi novel I referred to earlier. The first editor suggested it be deleted as nothing happened. I'd be interested in other views as to whether anything is happening here...

Prologue

It had taken a great deal of time but he had finally found her.

He stood outside the building and checked the device – looking something like a smart phone. Yes, she was close.

He glanced over both shoulders, then entered the building. The reading came from above so he climbed the stairs and paused outside each door.

On the third floor the reading was much stronger, and outside Apartment 303 he pressed a button on the device, then slipped it into his pocket.

He knocked at the door.

After half a minute, he heard movement and then the door opened.

She matched her filed image perfectly, but there was no sign of recognition. She should have known him but just stood staring.

He spoke in her native speech, but there was no response.

Glancing up and down the corridor to check he was not observed, he pushed past her into the apartment.

‘What do you want?’ she asked, in the local tongue.

‘Come in and sit down,’ he told her.

She obeyed willingly enough and he pulled the device back out of his pocket, adjusted the settings and passed it over and about her. Then he sat on her sofa and examined the readings for some time, slowly shaking his head.

‘I cannot make sense of this,’ he said. ‘Something has happened.’

He got up from the sofa and started exploring the apartment while she stayed in her seat – staring patiently at nothing.

In her bedroom he found, in a drawer, a device similar to his own. He spent a few minutes going through menus, then made some adjustments and put it back in the drawer. Then he went back out to the open plan area.

‘I have set your comm for a final reckoning but will arrange to have you picked up well before.’

She made no response.

‘Your shell also…’ he said. ‘What have you done with it?’

She looked up at him, blankly, and he ran another reading.

After examining the device for a few more moments he shrugged, and repeated: ‘I will have you picked up. Be patient, and keep to yourself. This is a bad world.’

He took a last glance around the apartment, then let himself out.

She would never see him again.

I like it. Could be colored up and clarified a bit.

I think with a piece like this, the reader is caught in clash between the casualness of his behavior and the intense strangeness of what he's saying and doing.

I would recommend increasing the normalcy of the apartment in between the weird stuff he says to build more suspense and make his statements whip-crack more effectively.
Add small descriptives of the intensely normal bedroom, have him have to go around a coffee table with a picture book and a cold cup of tea on it to take the second reading. Be very precise and accurate.

But yeah, I like it. I wanna know what the hell is going on now.

 

[skip.knox]

>But for myself, I wanted to explore the background to parts of the conflict I'm working on.

This is important. A prologue can exist for the author or it can exist for the reader. A great many prologues start life for the first reason. I (as author) know stuff about this world or this character, and I think it's important--which means I think it's interesting--so I want to share it. Because it takes place prior to the story, or in some distant location, I have to stick it here in a prologue.

The reader, however, sees this and wonders where's the story. Now, if my prose is really engaging, and if I keep it short, then maybe I can keep the reader from wandering away while waiting for the story to start. But as author I need to be aware that the reader is not coming to this prologue from the same perspective.

If the prologue exists because the *story* needs it, that's a different matter. Very often, what starts as a prologue can readily be transformed into Chapter One, or else scattered as backstory throughout the novel. We're headed out on a voyage. Do we really need an hour's lecture on our destination, or do we just get on board and go?

So yes, it's entirely up to you. But try to find reasons to keep it in the book for story reasons (reader reasons), and not for author reasons.

 

[The Dark One]

This is weak sauce compared to your other writing IMO.

Too vague, too short, and there could be something interesting happening here but you’d need to made it clearer and longer.

But I didn't want it to be clearer and longer. It's designed to raise questions in the reader's head and that is all.

BUT... there is important stuff here which is only realised later including one massive plot point. The editor in question had access to the entire story, which is why I was a tad gobsmacked when she recommended deleting it. I sent her a number of bullet points explaining how aspects of the prologue were important (even key) to understanding the novel.

The rest of the novel is written in a very different style and the free sample can be found here for anyone interested in what happens after the prologue... Asparagus Grass - Sample

 

[Finchbearer]

But I didn't want it to be clearer and longer. It's designed to raise questions in the reader's head and that is all.

BUT... there is important stuff here which is only realised later including one massive plot point. The editor in question had access to the entire story, which is why I was a tad gobsmacked when she recommended deleting it. I sent her a number of bullet points explaining how aspects of the prologue were important (even key) to understanding the novel.

The rest of the novel is written in a very different style and the free sample can be found here for anyone interested in what happens after the prologue... Asparagus Grass - Sample

You would expect any prologue to have a link to the story though. I’m not your editor, but I do have the opinion that it isn’t doing enough for me to want to read onward in this case. That’s just my feeling. I’ve moved away from the mysterious prologue, where there are nothing but hints dropped. The woman is not a person in it either, she’s just an ominous ‘she’ and ‘her’. It’s too vague for me.