Reason for a child-desiring character not to have kids?

[Ireth]

A major character in my Fae duology is a Daoine Sidhe named Lóegaire, whose primary motivation throughout the first book is his desire to have a child of his own. His backstory involves a failed attempt to "adopt" (read: kidnap) the book's heroine, Ariel, when she is a mere five days old. He is thwarted by Ariel's father and uncle, and does not attempt to take her again. (Ironically, when the two meet again in Faerie seventeen years later, he doesn't even recognize her for who she is.)

My main issue here is that I need a good, solid reason for this thousands-of-years-old Fae to be desperate for a child of his own, yet for whatever reason be unable to acquire one by any natural means. The Fae do not breed easily with each other, and full-Fae children are often frail, so there is a high percentage of human/Fae hybrids, as well as human children who are kidnapped into Faerie and eventually become part-Fae themselves. Lóegaire himself is a full-blooded Fae. To explain his childlessness during the first several hundred years of his life up to the failed kidnapping, I have three options:

a) He's completely sterile.
b) He's homosexual. (Or asexual?)
c) He'd rather wait for the chance to kidnap a healthy child than wait to father a frail one.

Option A seems rather likely, given that the Fae already have low fertility rates. It's possible he has or had a female lover, and eventually got tired of trying and failing to father a child, deciding to go the "traditional" route of child-kidnapping instead.

Option B is also likely, since I see absolutely no reason why the Fae should all be straight. Many of them could very well be bi-curious or even flat-out bisexual, gay or lesbian. There is also the possibility that he is asexual, and would rather just lay claim to a child without all the trouble of actually having sex. One problem with that is, from a storytelling perspective, the risk of him coming off as a Token Minority, like I just made him gay or asexual for the sake of having a character who is not straight.

Option C seems the least likely, since he would have plenty of opportunity to kidnap children throughout the centuries -- why wait until the 21st century? I don't particularly like the idea of him trying and failing to kidnap various children over a period of time, because a) the fact that he only tries to kidnap Ariel once means that he learns from his mistakes; and b) it would be increasingly hard to avoid the potential harm of steel and iron as humanity's technology progressed, so while human children would grow relatively healthier as things like medicine improved, they would also be harder to get at, even when people stopped believing in Fae for the most part.

So, narrowing this down to options A and B, which one do you think I should choose, and why?

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

If Fae have a lot of trouble breeding, homosexuality would likely be heavily frowned upon in their culture, because it would be seen as something that reduces the race's chances of survival. This doesn't mean you shouldn't do it; it just means it's a less likely option. I'd probably go with A. Maybe he's tried to have children before but he can rarely get a female Fae pregnant, and when he does she's always either miscarried or had a stillbirth, or the baby didn't live very long.

I think it'd be better if his attempt to kidnap Ariel was his first attempt to do such a thing. If he'd done it a bunch of times and failed, it would make him seem like some sort of harmless, inept fool.

 

[FireBird]

A- I would go with A if I were you because it's the most believable option. It happens often enough in our world, so why not in a book? There also aren't that many fertility medications for males, so there is a good chance you can't do anything about it.

B- It is very likely that your antagonist could be homosexual. However, I would not believe for a second that he would kidnap someone for that reason. Even if he was homosexual, if he wanted a child badly enough for thousands of years I don't see why he wouldn't try to have one by conventional means.

Why can't he just legally adopt a child, or have someone do it for him?

 

[Ireth]

If Fae have a lot of trouble breeding, homosexuality would likely be heavily frowned upon in their culture, because it would be seen as something that reduces the race's chances of survival. This doesn't mean you shouldn't do it; it just means it's a less likely option. I'd probably go with A. Maybe he's tried to have children before but he can rarely get a female Fae pregnant, and when he does she's always either miscarried or had a stillbirth, or the baby didn't live very long.

I think it'd be better if his attempt to kidnap Ariel was his first attempt to do such a thing. If he'd done it a bunch of times and failed, it would make him seem like some sort of harmless, inept fool.

I don't necessarily think homosexuality would be frowned on. The nature of Faerie and the Fae means that any humans who enter Faerie and stay there for a sufficiently long period of time (still trying to narrow it down to a specific number, but it's not a small number) eventually become partly Fae themselves, whether they be kidnapped children, or adults whom the Fae claim as lovers (both very common). As long as there is population growth that way, I think the Fae would be free to take lovers of whichever gender they prefer. And if full-Fae children are born from straight unions, all the better.

As for Lóegaire, I agree about Ariel being his first choice for a kidnapped child; it's meant to be a last resort spurred by sheer desperation and frustration that past tactics haven't worked. Thanks for your input!

 

[CupofJoe]

c) He'd rather wait for the chance to kidnap a healthy child than wait to father a frail one.

You've said you would narrow down to A or B but I'd go with a variation of C. He has a quirk in his "requirements" - the child has to have gold flecks in its eyes, or one eye blue and the other green or it has to be sunny when he meets them or it has to be a rising moon in a minor house... you get the idea...

 

[ThinkerX]

Power.

Either sterility or homosexuality or both work fine for him not having a child. (Suggestion - sterility brought on by a curse, one he is not fully aware of? Would that work? The curse would make him sterile only with other fey. Said curse might even originate from *within* the family.)

But as to wanting a child, he has ambitions - most likely to step into dear old dads place over dear old dads dead body. To be accepted by the nobility, though, he would have to show that he could produce a child. In this situation, he would not care about the childs survival at all - the only thing which would matter is that he could sire a child.

 

[Ireth]

A- I would go with A if I were you because it's the most believable option. It happens often enough in our world, so why not in a book? There also aren't that many fertility medications for males, so there is a good chance you can't do anything about it.

B- It is very likely that your antagonist could be homosexual. However, I would not believe for a second that he would kidnap someone for that reason. Even if he was homosexual, if he wanted a child badly enough for thousands of years I don't see why he wouldn't try to have one by conventional means.

Why can't he just legally adopt a child, or have someone do it for him?

A- Good point. I'm not sure what fertility treatments the Fae would have, anyway; they're in a sort of medieval stasis, so no modern medicine or anything is available.

B- He is not an antagonist at all; he is an anti-villain who gets promoted to protagonist in the second book. Also, kidnapping human children is perfectly normal among the Fae; it's just their version of adoption, just like we mortals have our own way of going about it. It's worked for thousands of years, so in their eyes, why fix what ain't broke?

C- See above. The Fae have no legal standing in the human world, so it would be impossible for him to adopt a child himself; also, until he meets the Hawks and actually befriends them all (which takes quite a while), he has no human friends at all, let alone any willing to adopt a child for him. Fae don't really befriend humans; Lóegaire is unique in his eventual friendship with the Hawk family and his sense of the value of a human life being equal to that of a Fae's.

 

[Ireth]

You've said you would narrow down to A or B but I'd go with a variation of C. He has a quirk in his "requirements" - the child has to have gold flecks in its eyes, or one eye blue and the other green or it has to be sunny when he meets them or it has to be a rising moon in a minor house... you get the idea...

Hmm... that seems a bit bizarrely specific. Ariel meets none of those requirements you suggested (dunno about the full moon one, I'd have to look it up for the specific date of the kidnapping attempt), but I might be able to invent some that she fits.

Power.

Either sterility or homosexuality or both work fine for him not having a child. (Suggestion - sterility brought on by a curse, one he is not fully aware of? Would that work? The curse would make him sterile only with other fey. Said curse might even originate from *within* the family.)

But as to wanting a child, he has ambitions - most likely to step into dear old dads place over dear old dads dead body. To be accepted by the nobility, though, he would have to show that he could produce a child. In this situation, he would not care about the childs survival at all - the only thing which would matter is that he could sire a child.

The curse idea is interesting; I have to wonder who would have cursed him and why. It'll be interesting to think about, for sure.

My problems with the ambition idea is that a) I'm using pretty much that exact idea for the very antagonistic Prince Fiachra in the same book, and b) Lóegaire is only a castle guard, not any sort of nobility, and he's perfectly fine in his place. He actually gets demoted after the events of the first book, so that wouldn't work for the sequel either. He'll have much more important things on his mind.

 

[ThinkerX]

Ok...

thousand year time frame. Plenty of time. So...

Your guy has a brother or uncle or some estranged relative.

Said relative wanted to make sure he or she had 'unchallenged claim' to something, be it a title or property or an object. So, said relative cursed your guy, making him inelligible for said 'something' (part of th requirement being a need to prove non sterility.)

Ariel was the solution your guy came up with. He *still* doesn't get the 'something', but he really screws up said relatives century.

Possibly there is some sort of time limit or other condition associated with the 'something'

 

[JCFarnham]

As for Lóegaire, I agree about Ariel being his first choice for a kidnapped child; it's meant to be a last resort spurred by sheer desperation and frustration that past tactics haven't worked. Thanks for your input!

Something to add to that is, if you want Ariel to be the only child he's ever tried to kidnap, he feel in some way guilty about doing it. People do all kinds of stupid stuff out of desperation (the most drastic of which being taking a life), why not have him kidnap as a result. If it's already established within Faerie that kidnapping is the perfect solution to childlessness then I see no better reason.

That part is fairly sound. Yet, I don't even think he has to be infertile for this to work. He could just be incredibly unlucky, and stupidly desperate. Of course, there could come a point when suspension of disbelief fails, but coming from the background he does I would certainly stick with it.

 

[Ireth]

Ok...

thousand year time frame. Plenty of time. So...

Your guy has a brother or uncle or some estranged relative.

Said relative wanted to make sure he or she had 'unchallenged claim' to something, be it a title or property or an object. So, said relative cursed your guy, making him inelligible for said 'something' (part of th requirement being a need to prove non sterility.)

Ariel was the solution your guy came up with. He *still* doesn't get the 'something', but he really screws up said relatives century.

Possibly there is some sort of time limit or other condition associated with the 'something'

I have a bit of a different idea. Loegaire fell in love and had a secret tryst with the Unseelie princess, which is discovered by the prince. Said prince tattles on them to the King, who curses both Loegaire and the princess with sterility/infertility. The King is okay with this, since he still has one son who could theoretically produce an heir to the throne. This winds up setting the entire plots of both books into motion. Loegaire's failed kidnapping of Ariel results in the human protagonists, Ariel included, believing sincerely in the Fae, which results in Ariel meeting the prince's requirements for a potential bride (the first book). Loegaire's lingering love for the princess drives him to help her try to escape a horrible fate as a result of the actions she takes during the course of the first book, despite the trouble it will cause him as well (the second book).

So congrats, Thinker, you win 1000 internets and a hearty thank you for sparking the whim that led to the perfect idea that made everything make sense. ^_^

Something to add to that is, if you want Ariel to be the only child he's ever tried to kidnap, he feel in some way guilty about doing it. People do all kinds of stupid stuff out of desperation (the most drastic of which being taking a life), why not have him kidnap as a result. If it's already established within Faerie that kidnapping is the perfect solution to childlessness then I see no better reason.

That part is fairly sound. Yet, I don't even think he has to be infertile for this to work. He could just be incredibly unlucky, and stupidly desperate. Of course, there could come a point when suspension of disbelief fails, but coming from the background he does I would certainly stick with it.

He does indeed regret his mistake, not least because of his decency and respect for human lives as much as Fae ones. I'm still going with the curse idea though, because it turned out to be more perfect than I imagined for making everything make sense.

 

[ThinkerX]

I have a bit of a different idea. Loegaire fell in love and had a secret tryst with the Unseelie princess, which is discovered by the prince. Said prince tattles on them to the King, who curses both Loegaire and the princess with sterility/infertility. The King is okay with this, since he still has one son who could theoretically produce an heir to the throne. This winds up setting the entire plots of both books into motion. Loegaire's failed kidnapping of Ariel results in the human protagonists, Ariel included, believing sincerely in the Fae, which results in Ariel meeting the prince's requirements for a potential bride (the first book). Loegaire's lingering love for the princess drives him to help her try to escape a horrible fate as a result of the actions she takes during the course of the first book, despite the trouble it will cause him as well (the second book).

I would suggest one addition - the motive for 'your guy' to (attempt) kidnapping Ariel the infant:

He had a relative with a child he liked very much - playing the doting uncle or godfather or whatever was a high point in his life. Child dies. Your guy goes a bit nuts, and starts looking for a replacement hoping to mollify relative. Being sterile and Fae children not being exactly common, he looks for said replacement on earth.

 

[Ireth]

I would suggest one addition - the motive for 'your guy' to (attempt) kidnapping Ariel the infant:

He had a relative with a child he liked very much - playing the doting uncle or godfather or whatever was a high point in his life. Child dies. Your guy goes a bit nuts, and starts looking for a replacement hoping to mollify relative. Being sterile and Fae children not being exactly common, he looks for said replacement on earth.

Hmmm. Fae don't typically have much of a sense of family, with the exception of when their children are young. Even brothers and sisters are apt to betray each other as often as help each other (as Fiachra and Meabh demonstrate clearly in Winter's Queen). Any family Loegaire had would be more likely to brush him off, possibly even suspecting him of wanting to take the child for himself if he doted too much. Besides which, Loegaire wanted baby Ariel for himself, as his own daughter, not just a niece or a goddaughter (if the Fae even have such a notion).

 

[Shockley]

My thoughts on reading this:

1. I would have trouble believing that a character who has lived that long in a society that doesn't frown on kidnapping would (A) have remorse for the action or (B) not succeeded in taking a child by that point. It's not a big deal but it would eat at me.

2. If the fae don't have a real sense of familial attachment, why does he want kids?

 

[Ireth]

My thoughts on reading this:

1. I would have trouble believing that a character who has lived that long in a society that doesn't frown on kidnapping would (A) have remorse for the action or (B) not succeeded in taking a child by that point. It's not a big deal but it would eat at me.

Loegaire is really not a typical Fae, since he actually is a pretty decent person by human standards, despite his flaws. I know that having him not succeed in taking children before that point is not very believable; hence why I'm trying to come up with an alternative. He might have wanted to try for the natural route all along, but never accomplished it even before being cursed. His sterility could very well have happened only just prior to the failed kidnapping attempt; that is not yet written in stone. Also, I'm still waffling on exactly how old he is; he might turn out to be rather young for a Fae (relatively speaking).

As for his remorse (or lack of it) at kidnapping Ariel, it's a somewhat tricky issue. Fae have no sense of good or evil as humans do, so applying human morals to them doesn't really work -- or for that matter, human logic. Our morality is said to be black, white and grey; theirs is more like blue, orange and brown. To them, kidnapping human children to raise as their own is not kidnapping; it's adoption. Killing someone for harming a tree in their neck of the woods isn't murder; it's justice. At the same time, some do have soft spots for young children, and some care deeply for their siblings. It also varies from kith to kith -- some Fae have no qualms about killing mortals simply because that is how they must survive. The Baobhan Sidhe subsist on the blood of mortals, while the Leannan Sidhe consume energy in exchange for artistic inspiration. Some view mortals as playthings, while others have little to do with them. Asking how a group of largely remorseless Unseelie can produce someone like Loegaire is like asking how the child of a perfectly saintlike family can suddenly up and murder someone (though, I suppose, in reverse). Sometimes nature and nurture have nothing to do with it, and it's all about choice.

2. If the fae don't have a real sense of familial attachment, why does he want kids?

I did say they "typically don't have a sense of family, with the exception of when their kids are young." (emphasis added) Every rule has its exceptions. Many Fae dote on their children at an early age, but grow disinterested as time goes on. As I mentioned above, some are very close to their siblings, and they care deeply for each other even as they grow up, while others are mistrustful and prone to betrayal. It really tends to vary between family and family, similar to human behavior.

TL;DR version: Fae =/= human, different morals and logic apply.

 

[SeverinR]

A major character in my Fae duology is a Daoine Sidhe named Lóegaire, whose primary motivation throughout the first book is his desire to have a child of his own. His backstory involves a failed attempt to "adopt" (read: kidnap) the book's heroine, Ariel, when she is a mere five days old. He is thwarted by Ariel's father and uncle, and does not attempt to take her again. (Ironically, when the two meet again in Faerie seventeen years later, he doesn't even recognize her for who she is.)

My main issue here is that I need a good, solid reason for this thousands-of-years-old Fae to be desperate for a child of his own, yet for whatever reason be unable to acquire one by any natural means. The Fae do not breed easily with each other, and full-Fae children are often frail, so there is a high percentage of human/Fae hybrids, as well as human children who are kidnapped into Faerie and eventually become part-Fae themselves. Lóegaire himself is a full-blooded Fae. To explain his childlessness during the first several hundred years of his life up to the failed kidnapping, I have three options:

a) He's completely sterile.
b) He's homosexual. (Or asexual?)
c) He'd rather wait for the chance to kidnap a healthy child than wait to father a frail one.

Option A seems rather likely, given that the Fae already have low fertility rates. It's possible he has or had a female lover, and eventually got tired of trying and failing to father a child, deciding to go the "traditional" route of child-kidnapping instead.

Option B is also likely, since I see absolutely no reason why the Fae should all be straight. Many of them could very well be bi-curious or even flat-out bisexual, gay or lesbian. There is also the possibility that he is asexual, and would rather just lay claim to a child without all the trouble of actually having sex. One problem with that is, from a storytelling perspective, the risk of him coming off as a Token Minority, like I just made him gay or asexual for the sake of having a character who is not straight.

Option C seems the least likely, since he would have plenty of opportunity to kidnap children throughout the centuries -- why wait until the 21st century? I don't particularly like the idea of him trying and failing to kidnap various children over a period of time, because a) the fact that he only tries to kidnap Ariel once means that he learns from his mistakes; and b) it would be increasingly hard to avoid the potential harm of steel and iron as humanity's technology progressed, so while human children would grow relatively healthier as things like medicine improved, they would also be harder to get at, even when people stopped believing in Fae for the most part.

So, narrowing this down to options A and B, which one do you think I should choose, and why?

I think C, because:
1.He might not want to put up with, or deal with a female. Ie he wants a child that he doesn't have to share parenting with a female.
2.doesn't want to deal with a complicated adult relationship.
3.possibly asexual, doesn't want sex with anyone, but wants the love of a child.

The other options work also, but this one works for the loner, the ego maniac(no one is equal to him), the business driven man,(probably wouldn't have time for the child, but he thinks he will, or feels an emptiness he thinks the child will fill.) the man that thinks women hate/dislike him.

 

[Ireth]

I think C, because:
1.He might not want to put up with, or deal with a female. Ie he wants a child that he doesn't have to share parenting with a female.
2.doesn't want to deal with a complicated adult relationship.
3.possibly asexual, doesn't want sex with anyone, but wants the love of a child.

The other options work also, but this one works for the loner, the ego maniac(no one is equal to him), the business driven man,(probably wouldn't have time for the child, but he thinks he will, or feels an emptiness he thinks the child will fill.) the man that thinks women hate/dislike him.

Out of your suggestions, I think it most likely that he is simply a business-driven man who misjudges how much time he has available to care for a child. I've made it clear in previous posts that I've decided he is straight, and it was an act of illicit, but consensual sex with the woman he loves (who just happened to be the princess of his Court) that got him cursed to be sterile. Thanks for your input.

 

[Shockley]

I read your explanation, but something about it still doesn't sit quite right with me. But hell, most things don't sit right with me.

That said, I'd like to throw something out there. In some books that deal with rather, uh, chaotic cultures, they have a system where illegal/immoral acts are rewarded as long as they are not too obvious about it. The drow in R. A. Salvatore's books are a perfect example - they can kill, rape and massacre with complete freedom as long as they pull it off without a hitch. If you kill all of the family you're clear, but god help you if you leave a lone survivor. So if I were doing something like this, I'd set up a restriction: You can kidnap freely as long as you don't get caught/seen. When you're seen, you give people a reason to either know that fae are real/retaliate against the fae - which would justify rules saying, 'Hey, you get one shot and you're done.'

 

[Ireth]

I read your explanation, but something about it still doesn't sit quite right with me. But hell, most things don't sit right with me.

That said, I'd like to throw something out there. In some books that deal with rather, uh, chaotic cultures, they have a system where illegal/immoral acts are rewarded as long as they are not too obvious about it. The drow in R. A. Salvatore's books are a perfect example - they can kill, rape and massacre with complete freedom as long as they pull it off without a hitch. If you kill all of the family you're clear, but god help you if you leave a lone survivor. So if I were doing something like this, I'd set up a restriction: You can kidnap freely as long as you don't get caught/seen. When you're seen, you give people a reason to either know that fae are real/retaliate against the fae - which would justify rules saying, 'Hey, you get one shot and you're done.'

That could make sense. It wouldn't really change the circumstances of the failed kidnapping, which is good. But Loegaire would need a pretty good reason to knowingly try to take a baby right out from her father's arms, over her mother's still-warm body, while the father's brother is standing right there as well. I'll have to work that scene out in my head more, I think, before I make certain details canonical.

 

[ThinkerX]

Second thought or suggestion as to 'your guys' initial kidnapping:

jealousy: a relative of his had a child and rubs it in his face.