Sexually explicit in fantasy - yay or nay?

[Fyle]

Why do I need explicit sex to create realism? The quality of my characters and worldbuilding should be able to do that. My readers aren't morons, they should be able to recognize that sex still exists even if I don't show the nitty-gritty details.

I'm not saying you need sex to create realism (it can add to building a realistic world for sure).

I am saying one day you might want to write about it, so why eliminate based on the fact it's sex?

You never have to write what you aren't comfortable writing if you don't want to. I am saying, don't count anything out based on what it is. Just keep an open mind to everything. These concepts are positive and simple to grasp.

Negetive is - I never have to do that if I don't want to, and don't tell me what to do! I don't like green eggs and ham, Sam I am! I am decided, foot down.

And, I never said you *need* it, X Equestris. That would be a ridiculous statement. Same for Tom, of course you have that right, that goes without saying as well and I never said you didn't.

 

[ThinkerX]

A couple years ago I wrote a story with...'major adult elements'...as a sort of experiment. It was something I hadn't attempted before; sex is usually an 'offstage' element of my writing. That tale is in showcase somewhere (the text will have to be highlighted to read if anybody is interested).

But there is also something else I noted a long time ago, and prompted me to write that story:

Most people, including most of the posters here, will never deliberately set out to kill another human being. Some have been in fights or military combat situations, but that's the minority. Yet tales featuring protagonists and antagonists graphically killing and maiming large numbers of other people - frequently without regard to age or gender - are a stock feature in many fantasy stories, and other sorts of fiction as well. Such is generally accepted.

On the other hand, the vast majority of people who live to adulthood will have sex at some point in their lives. Yet stories featuring sex - especially explicit sex - are not generally acceptable.

I wonder about this dichotomy now and again. Prior to writing that 'adult' piece, I'd written several tales featuring massacres and mutilations of various sorts. A couple of them did well in the various challenges. But I grew weary of writing about strife and bloodshed. I felt I needed to branch out a bit. Hence the 'adult' tale. Nobody dies in that story - for that matter, there's very little fighting although there is a degree of tension. But sex is a central element. Did I do something wrong or immoral in writing that story and posting it here?

 

[Tom]

@Fyle:

I'm not saying I'll never write a sex scene. I'm just saying that you seem to be insisting that everyone be okay with including sex in their works either now or in the future, even though other people might have objections to that based on religious beliefs or personal conviction.

And oh, like quoting Dr. Seuss at me and saying these concepts are "simple to grasp" isn't at all condescending. And it isn't like being condescending is going to insult me or anything. That's ridiculous.

 

[X Equestris]

I'm not saying you need sex to create realism (it can add to building a realistic world for sure).

I am saying one day you might want to write about it, so why eliminate based on the fact it's sex?

You never have to write what you aren't comfortable writing if you don't want to. I am saying, don't count anything out based on what it is. Just keep an open mind to everything. These concepts are positive and simple to grasp.

Negetive is - I never have to do that if I don't want to, and don't tell me what to do! I don't like green eggs and ham, Sam I am! I am decided, foot down.

And, I never said you *need* it, X Equestris. That would be a ridiculous statement. Same for Tom, of course you have that right, that goes without saying as well and I never said you didn't.

I haven't eliminated it just because it's sex. There are a number of other factors that make fade to black a more effective tool for what I'm doing.

 

[Fyle]

@Fyle:

I'm not saying I'll never write a sex scene. I'm just saying that you seem to be insisting that everyone be okay with including sex in their works either now or in the future, even though other people might have objections to that based on religious beliefs or personal conviction.

And oh, like quoting Dr. Seuss at me and saying these concepts are "simple to grasp" isn't at all condescending. And it isn't like being condescending is going to insult me or anything. That's ridiculous.

That comment wasn't for you. I mentioned a comment for you on the bottom with your name. I said to you, Tom, that you have the right to write whatever you like.

This is why Mythic Scribes needs POLLS. They are fun and extinguish threads like this that the OP starts cause it's a hot topic and bows out of. People can just refer to the POLL result as a definitive answer for the thread.

The whole thread is fairly irrelevant as it is opinion. I just like to hear more positivity than people who have unmovable opinons on the subject. I say, never say never.

 

[Tom]

Opinions are not irrelevant. If opinions were irrelevant, this forum would not exist. The democratic voting system would not exist. Half our newspapers, websites, and books would not exist. And morning talk shows would be obsolete (not that that's necessarily a bad thing...). Opinions matter. When you say a whole thread is irrelevant because it's mostly opinion, you're kind of forgetting the fact that the OP was asking for our opinions on the subject.

And even if it wasn't directed at me, condescension is still condescension. Thank you.

 

[Fyle]

Opinions are not irrelevant. If opinions were irrelevant, this forum would not exist. The democratic voting system would not exist. Half our newspapers, websites, and books would not exist. And morning talk shows would be obsolete (not that that's necessarily a bad thing...). Opinions matter. When you say a whole thread is irrelevant because it's mostly opinion, you're kind of forgetting the fact that the OP was asking for our opinions on the subject.

And even if it wasn't directed at me, condescension is still condescension. Thank you.

True, opinions are relevant.

But, the better the logic, the better the opinion. The more 'just because' the opinion has, the less relevant.

And, the more fact a comment has, the better the opinion is that goes along with it. To be frank, I am really just against not wanting to write sex scenes cause of religion. Which is why some of my comments have a hollow and general feel. This is what I see to be not wanting sex scenes due to more than personal opinion.

I also find it sad people are so uptight and have such strong convictions about a natural part of life and have to find it such a disturbing thought rather than shrugg it off. Which is were the violence comparison comes in. We went over that before.

Sorry if a Dr.Suess line offends you. You may be reading too deep into this.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

But, the better the logic, the better the opinion. The more 'just because' the opinion has, the less relevant.

I've seen nothing in your opinions & arguments beyond "just because".

This argument has become circular. I don't see much to gain by more discussion along this line. I'm not going to close the thread, but I would appreciate any new comments steering clear of rehashing this part of the debate.

If anyone has unheard opinions, or anything new to add to the debate, please do so.

 

[Fyle]

I've seen nothing in your opinions & arguments beyond "just because".

This argument has become circular. I don't see much to gain by more discussion along this line. I'm not going to close the thread, but I would appreciate any new comments steering clear of rehashing this part of the debate.

If anyone has unheard opinions, or anything new to add to the debate, please do so.

You are right. Apologies if anyone took something personal.

I am not even sure exactly what is being argued at this point I will be the first to admit. I just wish we had polls anyone could make with X amount of options and people could just vote. It seems the popular more heated debates end up circular by page 8 or 9 many times and lose track.

Like:

Do you include X in your novels?

* Yes, I do. 14%

* No, I don't. 24%

* If it was plot related. 4%

* I am undecided. 13%

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

You can make a poll with up to 10 line options.

Feel free to do so in a separate thread, as long as it doesn't degrade back into this circular argument.

 

[Tom]

@X Equestris:

I go the fade-to-black route when I'm writing sex scenes as well. How do you usually execute the technique--when do you fade out, how do you keep it a clean transition, when do you pick the narrative back up again, etc?

I usually write some foreplay, gradually allowing the narrative to become more stream-of-consciousness as arousal builds, then let that trail off into a scene fade. The next scene is usually the next morning, unless something unexpected happens during the night, like an ambush or robbery. It's a pretty standard course of action, but it works for me.

 

[Giya Kusezu]

Calling sex cheap filler is borderline ridiculous and completely opinionated. It shows a stronger connection between two characters and can be used as a tool to build who they are. If it is kept short and to the point, it is in no way shape or form "filler." I would say it's length is more relevant whether it is explicit or not, we can all agree nobodu wants to read 5-10 pages of explicit sex in fantasy... but kept as a few lines should not interrupt anything if it is plot relevant.

Why is a natural part of life "sacred"? I would like an explanation with as little opinion as possible so we can all understand this point of view.

In the end, it all comes down to how real you want your story to seem, and what realism does is create immersion... which is the goal for all writers across the board of every genre, nothing is more important.

The question is not whether it is well done or not. I think we have to assume it is written to a good enough standard to "work."

I am about keeping an open mind and not automatically blocking anything from your writting just because it is "fill in the blank," subject wise (technical writting is a different beast).

I am about keeping everything as an option and not saying "no way" just on the thought of it or your personal beliefs outside writing. How you think about sex, is outside influenced and a lot about personal experience and upbrining. To be honest, the less you are exposed to it, the more mysterious and alien it seems. Its just a normal part of life and should be handled with care because it is hard to make relevant, but it might be....

I beg to differ. The issue is about inclusion or not and why. Not about how well it is written, I am just trying to agree on a certain standard that the scene is not distasteful due to vulgur language is all. I could have worded it better to be fair to you, sure.


Refer to the yay or nay in the OP's title for the thread for clarity on the subject.

I seek logical answers.

I don't like grapefruit, why? I can leave it at that but...

I don't like the sour acidic taste, the texture of the skin or the juicyness. We are here as writers for reasons and keep discussions strong, the discussion is the heart of a forum and needs sitmulation.

You don't like sex in novels? Please tell me why, not "just because". Because of religious beliefs is fine, if you can explain in detail. Especailly on a forum about writing! I expect more that a few lines telling me why I am wrong rather than showing me why I am wrong

Fyle, I think you have helped to answer your question to my original post. I view life in all forms as something sacred. Sex is a special part of life to me, and furthermore, it represents the creation of new life or the rejuvenation of existing life. While I have no problem with a scene leading up to implied sex (granted that it is done in good taste) I do object to having the actual act of sex portrayed across a page I am trying to read. To me, reading something in a book isn't much different from watching someone doing the same thing in front of me. I would be offended if someone were to get heavily "steamy" or have sex right in front of me. Reading the same thing in a book also bothers me, for the following reason: I can visualize it very well, and I do not want to see such a thing. I do not believe it is my business what someone else does while making love with their partner, just like it's not their business what I do with my partner. It's private.

As has been stated in other posts, it is a matter of personal preference. I never actually cited religion as a part of my reason, although yes, that does have something to do with my personal choices and preferences. However, my personal stance on this could also be affected by other factors, such as if I was bothered by the thought of someone being molested. I think it is easier for some people to accept sexual acts than it is for others. I will unashamedly tell you that sometimes sex does embarrass me, for the above-stated reason that it is a special, private thing in my view.

Please understand that I am not trying to argue or tell you that you are "bad" or anything like that. I am trying to explain my personal view of why I don't agree with explicit sex scenes in literature. Everyone has their personal choice and a right to choose what they do or don't like.

Also, I would respectfully add that in my view, sex is not the only method available of constructing a deep, strong relationship between two characters. I understand that some people choose to use sex toward this means. As for me myself, I prefer to use other methods to connect characters emotionally.

TLR - Not including explicit sex scenes in a story is my personal choice. It feels disrespectful to me to treat something I see as special as so ordinary that it could happen on the sidewalk in front of a crowd of people and no one would be bothered. Of course some people will be bothered. Sure, others won't. But everyone has their preference.

Fyle you asked

I believe I may have an answer for you. Giya, correct me if I am wrong, is likely a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am basing this off of the sacred statements and location. I think it's a safe enough assumption for now. However, if I am wrong I apologize.

Yep, I'm a Mormon Thank you for being respectful in your approach to the matter, even if I hadn't been Mormon.

 

[Giya Kusezu]

I've seen nothing in your opinions & arguments beyond "just because".

This argument has become circular. I don't see much to gain by more discussion along this line. I'm not going to close the thread, but I would appreciate any new comments steering clear of rehashing this part of the debate.

If anyone has unheard opinions, or anything new to add to the debate, please do so.

Many apologies. I had given up reading the last few pages before posting my most recent response.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Understandable. You're just getting back into the thread,l but let's steer clear from this point forward.

 

[Vilya]

Why do I need explicit sex to create realism? The quality of my characters and worldbuilding should be able to do that. My readers aren't morons, they should be able to recognize that sex still exists even if I don't show the nitty-gritty details.

I personally don't go and tell everyone in my circle about my sex life. They still seem to come to the conclusion that I am a real person. Sex is no more necessary for realism, in my opinion, than it is necessary to show every time your MC has a meal or takes a "leak".

I don't write sex scenes and I personally don't care to read them. If I know a book has a lot of sex scenes in it, then I will just pass it over for something more my taste. Every time I stumble upon a sex scene in a fantasy novel I feel like I have been hit over the head with a blunt object and am left stumbling to find out why it was important. I have yet to find an instance where it has been.

 

[Ayaka Di'rutia]

I'm with Giya on her view about sex in literature. I consider it sacred as well, and it shouldn't be lightly portrayed. It just becomes porn when it's described in detail.

When I include sex in my books, I may do some foreplay, and then do a fade to black sort of thing; I don't describe the actual act. Most readers will get what happened anyway.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

sex is not the only method available of constructing a deep, strong relationship between two characters. I understand that some people choose to use sex toward this means. As for me myself, I prefer to use other methods to connect characters emotionally.

I actually had a scene with a bard and a huntress. The huntress danced to the bard's playing, in that scene, and one comment from a beta reader was that the dance scene was "evocative."

In fact, the Huntress is a lesbian and the bard is male, so while they developed a friendship during the adventure, sex was never in the realm of possibility. In this piece the MC's sexual preference wasn't mentioned. It wasn't important to the story to mention that, and I think that the scene was "sexy" in a way, though there was no physical contact or removal of clothing.

I simply needed the characters to bond, and since there was a language barrier, I thought music would strengthen the bond.

 

[X Equestris]

@X Equestris:

I go the fade-to-black route when I'm writing sex scenes as well. How do you usually execute the technique--when do you fade out, how do you keep it a clean transition, when do you pick the narrative back up again, etc?

I usually write some foreplay, gradually allowing the narrative to become more stream-of-consciousness as arousal builds, then let that trail off into a scene fade. The next scene is usually the next morning, unless something unexpected happens during the night, like an ambush or robbery. It's a pretty standard course of action, but it works for me.

I do much the same. Usually, I build it up enough for the audience to know what is being implied, and then cut it off before the act. Ends of chapters are good places for that. I've also done a "fade from black" if you will, where I opened a short story the morning after.

 

[Panda]

* by NOT having a sex scene because my lesbian Huntress is pining for a friend of hers who loves her like a sister, but isn't a lesbian so the love won't ever be what the Huntress wants... well, does that make my character look like an unbelievable sap?

I don't think I've ever met a lesbian who hasn't gone through that at some point.

 

[Fyle]

Out of respect for the mod's wishes to kind of end this thread. I will just say this:

Giya, thanks for that explanation, it is a lot better than most people offer.

Can't say I agree with every point, but I guess we'll take that to Chit Chat one day.