So about language-isms not in your native language?

[Naruzeldamaster]

For example I write in English, as it's my native language.

But I want to include some cultural Language-isms in my story.

Stuff like people of British Decent (or a raced based on British Culture) calling someone a Muppet. For example.
Another Example is someone going Jajaja in place of Hahaha because of the culture they're based on.

Dragon Quest Does this a lot (Regardless of the language the game is in) and I like it.
My thing with the Dragon Quest games, I think they do this a touch too much? Though in their case the cultures are inspired heavily by the real life example. So it makes sense.

 

[pmmg]

Sounds like it would be a good addition if you can pull it off. With Dragon Quest as a guide, you already have a model.

I assume the question is, how do I do this?

Things like Jajaja would be easy enough, but the audience has to know what it means when it comes up, so you have to kind of introduce the word in a way that leaves no confusion as to how it is being used.

In my own writing, I have a good number of made up words. They all appear first in some context, and then later are expanded upon. I decided to call one of my curved swords a 'Tog-na', for example. When it first appears, I have to describe is curved shape and that its bronze. Its kind of the style of sword in a certain culture. In that culture, saying Tog-na is easily understood to be a curved sword. Not much different that a criss knife in Dune, or a light saber in star wars. After its been used, I can keep using the word with less and less need to define what it is.

But to capture the whole culture, in some I made up a lot of words, but I stuck mostly to words that would come up a lot, likely be different, and used them over and over. In the Chosen, the producers have decided to go with the terms Eama and Abba, for mother and father, which is historical, but the rest of it is in English. It works. The first time its a little jarring but it starts to slide in as normal. Also a lot of Jewish words being used as well, and they just help shape the time, place and culture.

You just have to make up similar words and go with them.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Dragon Quest is a good 'model' I agree (It uses cultural language in the 'right' way and is extremely dedicated to that culture being represented right, especially in the more modern games.)

Though I probably won't take it quite as far as Dragon Quest does. A few Language-isms here or there to let the reader know what culture the fictional race is inspired by, but not much more. There are some points especially in modern Dragon Quest where I can't get some of what they're saying. Language barrier hits hard sometimes heh.

 

[Mad Swede]

You mean colloquial expressions. They can be a way of setting a story or character without making location or origin specific. The one thing to bear in mind is that such expressions are very hard to translate into another language, because they depend on the culture in that particular place or country.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

You mean colloquial expressions. They can be a way of setting a story or character without making location or origin specific. The one thing to bear in mind is that such expressions are very hard to translate into another language, because they depend on the culture in that particular place or country.

Ye, I wasn't sure it had a proper phrase for it but pretty much.
I won't be using that many I don't think, just ones that most people are aware of. Like I'm pretty sure a lot of folks go 'is that a british thing' when someone calls another person a muppet, either that or they think of the tv show. Both are valid reactions.

Dragon Quest uses a lot of those expressions but, while they do a good job of showing the culture accurately (It's one of my favorite bits of the series) it does make some of the dialogue hard to parse at times. That being said, their translation teams often do a pretty good job. The fact that it's included at all and done accurately is the main bit.

 

[The Dark One]

I do it a lot but I have read very extensively in the relevant cultures and have visited the relevant countries with my ears very much open.

If you do it, you have to KNOW you've got it right.

Otherwise you might look a right muppet.

 

[Mad Swede]

I do it a lot but I have read very extensively in the relevant cultures and have visited the relevant countries with my ears very much open.

If you do it, you have to KNOW you've got it right.

Otherwise you might look a right muppet.

Agreed, and I'd stress the need to read widely and extensively. Only then can you hope to gain the insight you need both to use colloqial expressions appropriately and to use them in more creative ways (such as using them both literally and colloqially). The late Sir Terry Pratchett was particularly good at this, and it shows most clearly in his later books.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I do it a lot but I have read very extensively in the relevant cultures and have visited the relevant countries with my ears very much open.

If you do it, you have to KNOW you've got it right.

Otherwise you might look a right muppet.

Yeah I plan to book up on it before I use language / expressions from other cultures.
For example the only one for sure that I know the meaning of is 'Bleedin Nora' which (From what I've seen) seems to be a replacement for 'wtf' more likely 'holy hell' or similar expressions. But I'll have to book up on these before I start using them. I know very little of this stuff.

Muppet, in my experience, I've only ever seen it used once. And the context it was used in could imply multiple phrases. But I think in this case.

I've been exposed to a few British/French ones that I'm confident I understand. Because it's a part of a few Youtuber's I watch's vocab.

I had no idea what "Minion" meant (In the context that the one or two youtubers I watch that use it, not the stupid yellow guys) until one of them explained the term to their 'western' audience. Another guy I watch uses 'Pants' a lot (In the Colloquial Expression way) but due to the context in which he uses it I can figure it out.

Agreed, and I'd stress the need to read widely and extensively. Only then can you hope to gain the insight you need both to use colloqial expressions appropriately and to use them in more creative ways (such as using them both literally and colloqially). The late Sir Terry Pratchett was particularly good at this, and it shows most clearly in his later books.

Hmm I'd have to look up some books written by folks who use them. Terry Pratchett is a good shout but I wonder if there are others?

 

[Mad Swede]

Yeah I plan to book up on it before I use language / expressions from other cultures.
For example the only one for sure that I know the meaning of is 'Bleedin Nora' which (From what I've seen) seems to be a replacement for 'wtf' more likely 'holy hell' or similar expressions. But I'll have to book up on these before I start using them. I know very little of this stuff.

Muppet, in my experience, I've only ever seen it used once. And the context it was used in could imply multiple phrases. But I think in this case.

I've been exposed to a few British/French ones that I'm confident I understand. Because it's a part of a few Youtuber's I watch's vocab.

I had no idea what "Minion" meant (In the context that the one or two youtubers I watch that use it, not the stupid yellow guys) until one of them explained the term to their 'western' audience. Another guy I watch uses 'Pants' a lot (In the Colloquial Expression way) but due to the context in which he uses it I can figure it out.


Hmm I'd have to look up some books written by folks who use them. Terry Pratchett is a good shout but I wonder if there are others?

I've been trying to think how to write this diplomatically. And I've given up.

You do not read anything like enough. Watching a bunch of Youtubers is not enough to gain the knowledge you need to use such expressions. You must read a lot.

You do not know how to use colloquial expressions and worse still you do not know the difference between a colloquial expression and an ordinary noun. To illustrate what I mean with a few of your examples:

• Minion is not a colloqial expression. It is a noun meaning a servile dependent, follower, or underling. And yes, the stupid yellow guys in the animated films are quite literally minions, in some ways slightly exagerated for comic effect.
• Pants can be a colloqial expression (in the UK and the Commonwealth, meaning something of poor quality) or it can be a noun meaning trousers (US) or mens underwear (UK and Commonwealth).
• A muppet is a noun (in some cases a proper noun) meaning a type of marionette or puppet, but in the UK and Commonwealth it is also a colloqial expression, specifically a friendly and very mild insult, meaning someone who has done something stupid
• Bleeding Nora (or any of its many variants) is an historical colloquial British, Irish and Commonwealth expression used to avoid blaspheming (taking the Lords name in vain, or using words like Hell). Other similar colloquial expressions used in the UK, Eire and the Commonwealth include things like Gordon Bennett, Cor Blimey etc. Expressions like that vary with region and period in time, so you need to do a lot of research if you are to use them correctly.

To summarise this. You need to read a lot more. Stop watching Youtube videos, stop playing so many games and start reading instead. Buy a good dictionary (something like the Concise Oxford English Dictionary) and a good thesaurus (Rogets Thesaurus or the Oxford English Thesaurus are your first choice). Your writing will go nowhere if you don't start reading and then looking up words and expressions.

 

[The Dark One]

I tend to agree with MS quite a lot, I've noticed, though I probably would have found a way to say the above a little less confrontingly.

That said, it's an important lesson. Quality writing - my definition of quality meaning: writing that is worth reading, on any level - must come from a milieu in which the writer has deeply immersed him/herself. That's why they say: write what you know or love. This is especially the case if you want to write about other cultures or subcultures. You must do the research and that means LOTS of reading of books, fiction and non-fiction, which deal with that culture. Actually going to those places and talking with the people helps also.

There are no shortcuts.

To give an example from personal experience, my first commercially published novel was a crime novel, mainly set in England, against the backdrop of English football and its myriad subcultures. I am Australian but have been deeply immersed in English football and its lore and literature my entire life. So when it came to writing about various different types of fans, footballers, hooligans, Irish mafia and British terrorists, I was all over both the various subcultures and their idioms.

A very frequent comment from British readers was that they couldn't believe the book was written by an Australian.

You probably don't need to be as obsessive as me but it does help.

 

[MSadiq]

I've been trying to think how to write this diplomatically. And I've given up.

You do not read anything like enough. Watching a bunch of Youtubers is not enough to gain the knowledge you need to use such expressions. You must read a lot.

You do not know how to use colloquial expressions and worse still you do not know the difference between a colloquial expression and an ordinary noun. To illustrate what I mean with a few of your examples:

• Minion is not a colloqial expression. It is a noun meaning a servile dependent, follower, or underling. And yes, the stupid yellow guys in the animated films are quite literally minions, in some ways slightly exagerated for comic effect.
• Pants can be a colloqial expression (in the UK and the Commonwealth, meaning something of poor quality) or it can be a noun meaning trousers (US) or mens underwear (UK and Commonwealth).
• A muppet is a noun (in some cases a proper noun) meaning a type of marionette or puppet, but in the UK and Commonwealth it is also a colloqial expression, specifically a friendly and very mild insult, meaning someone who has done something stupid
• Bleeding Nora (or any of its many variants) is an historical colloquial British, Irish and Commonwealth expression used to avoid blaspheming (taking the Lords name in vain, or using words like Hell). Other similar colloquial expressions used in the UK, Eire and the Commonwealth include things like Gordon Bennett, Cor Blimey etc. Expressions like that vary with region and period in time, so you need to do a lot of research if you are to use them correctly.

To summarise this. You need to read a lot more. Stop watching Youtube videos, stop playing so many games and start reading instead. Buy a good dictionary (something like the Concise Oxford English Dictionary) and a good thesaurus (Rogets Thesaurus or the Oxford English Thesaurus are your first choice). Your writing will go nowhere if you don't start reading and then looking up words and expressions.

To add to this, the internet is genuinely a terrible place for learning how to use colloquial expressions. When expressions migrate to the internet, it takes a new meaning or different connotations.

For example, the worst offender is habibi. Yes, it is frequently used by Arabs, but it is not a replacement for bro or mate. It can be in SOME exclamative contexts.

I'd never walk up to someone and say "habibi, could you move." People my age from Kuwait, Bahrain, and Eastern Saudi would likely say, "al-ghali, could you move," which literally means precious and expensive. Most often, it is an exclamative for when you're angry and say: "habibi, shut it." Sort of to soften it. It's used as a term of endearment, too, usually toward people younger than yourself. I'd not call my cousin habibi in this way, unless he's much younger, for instance.

Those uses of habibi, are absent from the internet. Overall, it's just not good. You need to read, do genuine research—not cursory looks on the internet—and talk to people. There's very little material on how WW2 affected my country, Bahrain, but old people are living account of that.

 

[MSadiq]

I tend to agree with MS quite a lot, I've noticed, though I probably would have found a way to say the above a little less confrontingly.

That said, it's an important lesson. Quality writing - my definition of quality meaning: writing that is worth reading, on any level - must come from a milieu in which the writer has deeply immersed him/herself. That's why they say: write what you know or love. This is especially the case if you want to write about other cultures or subcultures. You must do the research and that means LOTS of reading of books, fiction and non-fiction, which deal with that culture. Actually going to those places and talking with the people helps also.

There are no shortcuts.

To give an example from personal experience, my first commercially published novel was a crime novel, mainly set in England, against the backdrop of English football and its myriad subcultures. I am Australian but have been deeply immersed in English football and its lore and literature my entire life. So when it came to writing about various different types of fans, footballers, hooligans, Irish mafia and British terrorists, I was all over both the various subcultures and their idioms.

A very frequent comment from British readers was that they couldn't believe the book was written by an Australian.

You probably don't need to be as obsessive as me but it does help.

I don't like to make assumptions, but I think some, like myself, fall into the trap of thinking that fantasy doesn't require much research or at all. I moved from developing one idea to the next and never do any actual writing because I kept wanting to find the route of least resistance, but I just had to stop. I picked an appropriately ambitious concept for a first timer, and I'm buckling down.

Not to say that I've put anything to paper yet, but about 2 weeks ago, I started to genuinely focusing on a single idea and developing it, which I'll do, God willing, until it reaches just the right point and trying not to obsess about getting everything in place before hand, then I'll start the actual writing process.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I tend to agree with MS quite a lot, I've noticed, though I probably would have found a way to say the above a little less confrontingly.

That said, it's an important lesson. Quality writing - my definition of quality meaning: writing that is worth reading, on any level - must come from a milieu in which the writer has deeply immersed him/herself. That's why they say: write what you know or love. This is especially the case if you want to write about other cultures or subcultures. You must do the research and that means LOTS of reading of books, fiction and non-fiction, which deal with that culture. Actually going to those places and talking with the people helps also.

There are no shortcuts.

To give an example from personal experience, my first commercially published novel was a crime novel, mainly set in England, against the backdrop of English football and its myriad subcultures. I am Australian but have been deeply immersed in English football and its lore and literature my entire life. So when it came to writing about various different types of fans, footballers, hooligans, Irish mafia and British terrorists, I was all over both the various subcultures and their idioms.

A very frequent comment from British readers was that they couldn't believe the book was written by an Australian.

You probably don't need to be as obsessive as me but it does help.

See, I like the tone of this post VS the tone of Mad Swede's (Though I understand the slap on the wrist)
I understand both, but I think MS misunderstood what I meant.
I have had those phrases explained by youtubers I watch who use them in their regular vocab yes, but I don't plan on stopping there research wise.

I have been exposed to those phrases in other media (Though I do plan to read if I can find some books) that use those phrases and other ones from other cultures. They aren't usually explained (Dragon Quest doesn't take the players time to explain it) but based on context I can figure it out and either research it or find a book to read. Not a fan of people assuming my intelligence level because I made a comment about learning a term from a youtuber.

 

[Karlin]

My personal example is Chinese culture. I read all four classic novels. Unfortunately in English translation. . They're about 2,000 pages long EACH. I read one of them 3 times, along with thousands of footnotes that explained cultural references. In parallel, I listened to podcasts about Chinese history. Visited Taiwan and China multiple times. Read a couple of history texts, and... I do not consider myself an expert. Just a westerner who is more knowledgeable than most.

 

[The Dark One]

Not a fan of people assuming my intelligence level because I made a comment about learning a term from a youtuber.

I don't think there was anything in MS's post regarding your intelligence. It was simply a caution against relying on youtube for fast research.

 

[Mad Swede]

Not a fan of people assuming my intelligence level because I made a comment about learning a term from a youtuber.

I criticised your apparent lack of reading and your apparent reliance on Youtubers. That has nothing to do with your intelligence.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I criticised your apparent lack of reading and your apparent reliance on Youtubers. That has nothing to do with your intelligence.

And I commented on that when I said 'I understand the slap on the wrist' early on in the post.
I was just saying it felt that way at the time I read it.
Back on topic, I'm gonna have to find some good resources to look this stuff up.
Reading books that use these expressions properly would be a start, but I dunno where to start on that.