Stereotypes, something we should avoid?

[Endymion]

While sitting on my chair I started thinking about elves. When I open a fantasy book elves are alway portrayed (almost always) as beautiful, wise... Well, perfect. And I thought, that maybe some creatures are supposed to be like that. Untouched. Like they were originally. For examples trolls. When you read troll somewhere, doesn't the picture of a big, ugly, fat creature pop into your head? Or the trolling sign? Wouldn't it be odd and hard to understand if the next sentence about the troll would be "Her blonde hair was like the rays of sunshine"? Or that orcs were peaceful politicians that invented democracy?

I do realize that if we would copy everything and wouldn't even try to be original then there wouldn't be any good books. Stereotypes are bad, but what if you don´t overuse them? Is it a bad thing anyways?

 

[Hans]

When I open a fantasy book elves are alway portrayed (almost always) as beautiful, wise... Well, perfect.

Elves are often some wish fulfillment for authors - and readers. It does not have to be that way. In Mythology elves can be mean and nasty critters.

And I thought, that maybe some creatures are supposed to be like that.

If the author wants them to be, yes.

Untouched.

Virgin?

Like they were originally.

Elves were originally exactly what? Different sources tell very different things.

For examples trolls. When you read troll somewhere, doesn't the picture of a big, ugly, fat creature pop into your head? Or the trolling sign? Wouldn't it be odd and hard to understand if the next sentence about the troll would be "Her blonde hair was like the rays of sunshine"?

Maybe it's just me, but I know enough about norse mythology to know that this is entirely possible.

Or that orcs were peaceful politicians that invented democracy?

For arcs we have a own thread somewhere. These are defined by Tolkien and so lack (yet) the diversity that a hundreds or thousands year old mythology would give.

Stereotypes are bad,

Are they?

but what if you don´t overuse them? Is it a bad thing anyways?

IMHO stereotypes are a tool you can use. As you said, when you write "troll" the reader has a certain image. Of course you can use this image and then they "troll with the following differences:".
Most fantasy worlds are "like earth until stated otherwise". Earth, the reality, is the biggest stereotype you have. And everyone always uses it. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Queshire]

The biggest thing is differentiating between tropes and stereotypes. To that end, I direct you to this website; Home Page - Television Tropes & Idioms Certainly, there's nothing wrong with using tropes, but you got to own it, tie that sucker down and make it your bitch. Elves Are Better, but how exactly are they better? In my world, they've mastered life magic which is basically magical genetic engineering, they are better because they make themselves better in a way remeniscent of plastic surgery.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I'm new here, so I'm curious--is this going to turn into a debate about the inherent racism of portraying a race of tall blonde people as the embodiments of perfection? I've been on sites where it would and sites where it wouldn't. (Personally, I don't think it's racist in and of itself, but I think it traces back to racist origins, and the repeated use of it with no comparable glorification of different body types can do as much cultural damage as actual racism.)

(As for beautiful trolls, I recall a mention that Robert Asprin has a story in which the males of the species are trolls, and the females are trollops.)

 

[Ireth]

I'm new here, so I'm curious--is this going to turn into a debate about the inherent racism of portraying a race of tall blonde people as the embodiments of perfection?

Not all elves are blond -- in fact most of Tolkien's elves (which are largely responsible for today's popular view of the race) were black-haired. The blond ones were only about 1/3 of the population. Also there were elves with red or silver hair, though those colors were extremely rare and exclusive to specific bloodlines.

 

[Dark Huntress]

I'm new here, so I'm curious--is this going to turn into a debate about the inherent racism of portraying a race of tall blonde people as the embodiments of perfection? I've been on sites where it would and sites where it wouldn't. (Personally, I don't think it's racist in and of itself, but I think it traces back to racist origins, and the repeated use of it with no comparable glorification of different body types can do as much cultural damage as actual racism.)

I may differ from most but I think that if racism pops into your mind when you read that sentence or description of the characters, then it racist. This is one case where I think the author is responsible for what he KNOWS the reader will interpret. If he means it to be racist than there's no problem but if he doesn't well the reader may still see it as racism.

We've just had too many years of stereotyping in this county to believe otherwise. That is indeed very sad.

 

[Jabrosky]

Stereotypes are bad

The reason "stereotype" has such negative connotations is because certain stereotypes have been used to justify the oppression or dehumanization of real groups of people. However, in this thread we are talking about fictional races. Stereotypes about elves, orcs, or whatever don't hurt real groups of people, so even if they are trite, they cannot be fairly compared in real-world damage to stereotypes about, say, African people.

As for "beautiful" elves having blond hair, blue eyes, and pale skin...elves originate from Northern European mythology, so of course they would resemble idealized Northern Europeans. If elves came from African mythology instead, they would resemble idealized Africans instead. I find stereotypical fantasy elves incredibly annoying and have never found them attractive (pointy ears is a turnoff for me), but I don't fault them for having "Nordic" physical features (which I have myself BTW).

 

[Queshire]

I think an argument could be made that saying that stereotypes dealing with fictional races being no big deal could result in the readers mentally extending that to stereotypes as a whole being no big deal, which can be bad.

 

[gavintonks]

do not fall into the trap of hollywood movies are it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if you research and go to original stories you find very different concepts and descriptions

 

[Feo Takahari]

^^^ Fun fact: back when elves were bad, they were brown-skinned. You can still see this in a few works, like Holly Lisle's Tithe or Eloise McGraw's The Moorchild.

That said, I don't think we can clearly prove this sort of stuff racist. It's easier to show it as intellectually simple. I want to be surprised by fiction, and orcs with no twist other than "savage and warlike" aren't surprising.

 

[Queshire]

again, I don't think it's a bad to use the tropes and such associated with a fantasy race, you can have orcs that are savage and warlike, that's what makes them orcs, but that shouldn't be the only thing about them, if you have JUST the classic attributes of a race, they end up being flat, it's best to try and round them out some more.

 

[Steerpike]

Blizzard orcs have evolved a bit. Blizzard basically took their original Warcraft universe almost directly from Warhammer, up to the point of even incorporating the art style. It was more or less just a clone of the Warhammer world, with Starcraft somewhat of a clone of Warhammer 40K. Since then, they've taken the stories in different directions.

 

[Devor]

Blizzard orcs have evolved a bit. Blizzard basically took their original Warcraft universe almost directly from Warhammer, up to the point of even incorporating the art style.

In their defense, when they made the first game they were actually pitching it to Warhammer.

 

[Steerpike]

In their defense, when they made the first game they were actually pitching it to Warhammer.

Yes. From what I understand, they were actually negotiating for a license from Games Workshop to create Warhammer video games. The license fell through (luckily, from my point of view; maybe not as luckily if you are Games Workshop, though they seem to do well).

 

[gavintonks]

I am posting this in a few threads as I have become to notice that many people consider a "travelogue through their imagination" is a story. It is not the imagination is purely the substitute for characters within a well crafted and entertaining story. This is not creating a game it is writing and entertaining and gripping story that may or may not exist somewhere but it it the story that must be real first.,

 

[Hans]

I am posting this in a few threads as I have become to notice that many people consider a "travelogue through their imagination" is a story.

A story can have the style of a travel report. And not each and every story needs to strictly obey the dogmas taught in modern "Creative Writing" classes.
Maybe fantasy readers are more used to get the adventure story type. But does really every fantasy story have to be an adventure story?

 

[Feo Takahari]

Gulliver's Travels is basically a travelogue, isn't it?

 

[gavintonks]

No Guliver lands up in the land of miniature people where he battles prejudice, and then to the land of giants, other than his sea trip and waking up on the island he is engaging with misunderstandings

 

[gavintonks]

good point Hans

 

[Queshire]

While I have never read Gulliver's travels myself, I remember hearing that the little guys and the giants were only one part of the story, he travels to several other legendary lands, even Japan, which, at the time it was written, killed just about any non-Japanese that landed there so was considered pretty legendary as well.