Telling Time

[Androxine Vortex]

I am having trouble developing a way for my characters in my fantasy world to tell time. "Why not just use a sun dial? Or use the 24 hour system with day and night?" Well in my story, there are a few things to consider.

-In my story the world IS flat so there is no orbital revolutions.

-It is always day and never night

-The sun stays directly above the (flat) Earth and never moves.

See my problem now? I was thinking of having the sky turn different colors and shades to represent time changing but would like to know what you think. Trust me, the way I have the whole weird system set up WILL make sense in my story and it has to stay like this for major reasons I can't spoil. I think I am going to stick with the color-change idea but was hoping to get some inspiration.

 

[Devor]

Depending on why you need the world that way, there could be other planetary objects in the sky whose movements are used to tell time. The moon and planets can sometimes be seen during the day, or instead of different color "flashes," perhaps there are stars which come in and out of the range of daytime visibility, and they could come in different colors or sizes or have weird names. I think that would give your system a little more depth and character.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

How time works is so fundamental to civilization that it would underlie everything. A world that has no night, presumably has never had night. If there's some phenomenon that fluctuates on a regular basis (e.g. the rotation of the planet) then that makes timekeeping relatively easy. If there isn't, then it's much more difficult.

What would a civilization be like without regular timekeeping? Do people in this world sleep? Without nature indicating the passage of time, perhaps people would be less worried about regularized tasks. They'd probably still invent timekeeping devices (without modern technology, hourglasses are the only thing I can think of).

Or perhaps the sun is centered above, but it's not quite bright enough to wash out the stars; and the world (which is perhaps flat but shaped like a disc) spins on a vertical axis (like an LP), so that the stars move around up above. Then you can tell time by the stars moving relative to the sun.

 

[Aegrus]

Civilizations, even primitive ones, can do amazing things when properly motivated. Look at the pyramids. Look at greek architecture. Look at the man in a WWII concentration camp who planned a new type of working calculator without any training or materials.

In a society where the sun never sets, telling time would become a major priority, so rest assured that someone would go to remarkable lengths to invent something.

Large clocks(such as the kind you find on towers) keep time very well without modern power sources. Handheld watches can also be wound up and operated by wieghts and gears. It's not impossible (or even improbable) for a skilled person to build those kinds of things, even without modern technology. I may be wrong, but I think those things appeared in our world around the 1800s, but in your society, where telling time is both harder and essential, I would think they could develop much earlier if you wanted them to.

 

[Graham Irwin]

What about a metronome?

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

In a society where the sun never sets, telling time would become a major priority, so rest assured that someone would go to remarkable lengths to invent something.

Are you certain? Without a constant reminder of the passage of time (the day/night cycle), isn't it plausible that a society might develop that doesn't worry so much about being on time, keeping track of time, counting time? At least, it's entirely reasonable that a fantasy story might have such a civilization.

 

[Devor]

Are you certain? Without a constant reminder of the passage of time (the day/night cycle), isn't it plausible that a society might develop that doesn't worry so much about being on time, keeping track of time, counting time? At least, it's entirely reasonable that a fantasy story might have such a civilization.

I think that would depend in part on whether or not there are still seasons and how far societies have developed. There's quite a few places in the real world that don't give much stock to being on time, so I don't consider that to be much of a stretch at all. In fact, caring much about the time is kind of modern.

But I came back to the thread to mention, if they can't tell time by the sky, maybe they could tell time by the tidal currents or some other movements in the water. It's not too hard to imagine a two-tide system that can give you a "morning" and "evening" and work on a flat planet with the sky on lockdown.

 

[Taytortots]

Without a constant reminder of the passage of time (the day/night cycle), isn't it plausible that a society might develop that doesn't worry so much about being on time, keeping track of time, counting time?

I think they still would. I see what you mean though, they would most likely view time in a much different way than we do. (Something to think about, Androxine.) But these people would still need to get places on time, work etc.

I think the sky changing color is a good idea, though it may draw questions of How. The other ideas stated could also work. An hour glass that goes for a day, with a tick to mark off an hour, say. Or something operated with gears (if large, can be run my labor or magic, depending on your world, in small, and enchantment perhaps).

Well, I hope this helped. Depending on your novel, these all may not work, but i'm sure there will be something that sticks. Good luck.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

Well, the tides depend on another orbiting (non-static) body, e.g. the moon. If the sky is totally static, then what's causing the tides?

Anyway, it really depends on exactly what parameters A.V. wants the world to have. I think it'd be interesting to have a world that spins like a record, relative to the sun and stars. Maybe the sun also orbits it, or something. *shrug*

 

[ThinkerX]

Water clocks? A 'day' being equal to how long it takes dripping water (maybe diverted from a river or some such) to fill a container? Maybe set up so that each time the container is filled, a bell or gong is rung? With a semi-religious order whose sole task is to make sure all this happens as it is supposed to?

(this actually sounds like the sort of thing a dwarven culture might come up with on a world like that).

As for longer periods...at some point, other planets should be visible at regular intervals.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

Thank you for all the responses, and I know this is a weird topic/thread lol

@Taytortots
I have thought about how they would view time actually. Obviously it's never night but It's never going to be "high noon" all day long. With the "sky changing color" idea I have right now, I would make it so that when it would be "daytime" (at least in OUR sense) the sky would be a mixture of brighter colors. Then at "nighttime" the sky's shades would darken to maybe a heavy blue mixed with purple or something like that to suggest the ideal of an ending day. So technically it is always day, but certain parts of it are darker in color than other. Something I'm still working on.

@Benjamin Clayborne
I really like the idea of the world spinning like a record. I might try and work something out with that

In regards to the "tides" suggestion, yes it is true tides are caused by the moon and other orbital functions, but I am not planning to go too into detail in this science. I'm not trying to explain why this world exists the way it does by our laws. In other words, the world i am creating can not exist without breaking the laws of physics. That's a fact. So what I am going to do is create this world, put the reader in it, and explain why it is different and less of how it is, if that make sense.

I want the reader to realize they are in a totally different world but I don't want them trying to prove/disprove how the world functions in comparison to ours. I'm pretty sure that when J.K Rowling wrote the Harry Potter series, she wasn't woried about explaining how magic effects the atoms and molecules in the air. No, she suggested that magic existed and the reader was just supposed to go along with that notion. At the same time, I'm not going to make it too ridiculous. I'm not saying "there is no gravity and everything is made out of cheese."

I feel like I'm going on a rant, but maybe that's just me having a hard time trying to explain what it is I am shooting for. I think you get my drift.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I want the reader to realize they are in a totally different world but I don't want them trying to prove/disprove how the world functions in comparison to ours. I'm pretty sure that when J.K Rowling wrote the Harry Potter series, she wasn't woried about explaining how magic effects the atoms and molecules in the air. No, she suggested that magic existed and the reader was just supposed to go along with that notion. At the same time, I'm not going to make it too ridiculous. I'm not saying "there is no gravity and everything is made out of cheese."

Sure, just keep in mind that Potter's "magic" was layered on top of the normal physical world. You're talking about changing the underlying physical world, which has much more profound effects. In other words, if you simply declare that (for example) there's never nighttime in your world, but otherwise nothing changes, that will seem weird -- if there's never night, why do people sleep? Do businesses close? Etc.

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

The world of Harry Potter has our world as it's basis, and it's magic only requires you to suspend your disbelief to a certain point. If you change the core characteristics of your world, but otherwise the world functions much the same as ours, then I'm not sure what the point is (other than it being a cool idea, which might be a valid reason anyway).

Not that you shouldn't do it, but I think you should at least consider the knock-on effect of your alterations, and what they mean. You can decide from there what you want to include, but if you're not aware of your own rules, then you may have problems with consistency.

Otherwise, I think there are some cool ideas in this thread for timekeeping. I particularly like the idea of a machine and a holy order that protect it's integrity.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

Sure, just keep in mind that Potter's "magic" was layered on top of the normal physical world. You're talking about changing the underlying physical world, which has much more profound effects. In other words, if you simply declare that (for example) there's never nighttime in your world, but otherwise nothing changes, that will seem weird -- if there's never night, why do people sleep? Do businesses close? Etc.

The world of Harry Potter has our world as it's basis, and it's magic only requires you to suspend your disbelief to a certain point. If you change the core characteristics of your world, but otherwise the world functions much the same as ours, then I'm not sure what the point is (other than it being a cool idea, which might be a valid reason anyway).

Not that you shouldn't do it, but I think you should at least consider the knock-on effect of your alterations, and what they mean. You can decide from there what you want to include, but if you're not aware of your own rules, then you may have problems with consistency.

Otherwise, I think there are some cool ideas in this thread for timekeeping. I particularly like the idea of a machine and a holy order that protect it's integrity.

Yeah those are good points, but I think you get what I meant with my example lol. What are some things that you think would make this fantasy setting different from any other setting in the sense of my always daytime idea? For the time being, it operates just the same as any other fantasy setting except for the reasons listed previously but I'm open to suggestions. Like you said, When do people sleep? Do businesses close? If this was your story, How would you make society operate and function?

 

[Johnny Cosmo]

If it were my story, I'd probably work out the astronomical and geographical details first. But as you don't want to get too bogged down in that stuff, I'm sure you could make some guesses. As long as there is reason, it doesn't have to make perfect sense in a fantasy setting.

 

[Devor]

Do businesses close?

With perpetual sunlight people wouldn't really have a "down" period in their shopping patterns, and depending on the details, might not have regular cycles to when they go out and when they stay in and the like. I find it likely that many small shops would struggle with that because it means that as a shopkeeper you have to find people you trust as much as yourself to make decisions in the store 24/7. That would have significant ramifications on the way businesses behave, and 2 or 3-way partnerships would very likely be the norm.

The thing is, that forces people to work closer together earlier in society than they would have otherwise, so you might see more ingenuity being produced whenever those partnerships do work out. I would also suspect a super-center in your world much earlier than in ours because some of these partnerships will likely work very well together, and because that would create some of that predictable customer traffic that would otherwise be completely lacking.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

With perpetual sunlight people wouldn't really have a "down" period in their shopping patterns, and depending on the details, might not have regular cycles to when they go out and when they stay in and the like. I find it likely that many small shops would struggle with that because it means that as a shopkeeper you have to find people you trust as much as yourself to make decisions in the store 24/7. That would have significant ramifications on the way businesses behave, and 2 or 3-way partnerships would very likely be the norm.

The thing is, that forces people to work closer together earlier in society than they would have otherwise, so you might see more ingenuity being produced whenever those partnerships do work out. I would also suspect a super-center in your world much earlier than in ours because some of these partnerships will likely work very well together, and because that would create some of that predictable customer traffic that would otherwise be completely lacking.

I am planning on making "nighttime" sky darker colors that way it would kind of resemble nighttime. Although it would never truly be night so maybe the culture is split where people mainly work during the "day" then sleep at "night" and then the other side does vise versa. That way it is sort of like a 24/7 culture/society to further emphasize my never-ending-day theme. What do you think of that?

 

[Devor]

I am planning on making "nighttime" sky darker colors that way it would kind of resemble nighttime. Although it would never truly be night so maybe the culture is split where people mainly work during the "day" then sleep at "night" and then the other side does vise versa. That way it is sort of like a 24/7 culture/society to further emphasize my never-ending-day theme. What do you think of that?

Whatever you want to do is up to you, but if you create this strange set up and then tweak it to undermine all of the strange and compelling effects that would come from it, at some point you start ask, "What's the point?" I'm not saying you have to listen to this idea or another one specifically - you're the author, it's your world, your decisions - but to me, I'd say this world should feel pretty strange, just go with it.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

Whatever you want to do is up to you, but if you create this strange set up and then tweak it to undermine all of the strange and compelling effects that would come from it, at some point you start ask, "What's the point?" I'm not saying you have to listen to this idea or another one specifically - you're the author, it's your world, your decisions - but to me, I'd say this world should feel pretty strange, just go with it.

Well yeah I know I have the final say in this because it is my book, but still it doesn't hurt to find inspiration from others lol. I'm not asking for someone to develope the plot for me, just some ideas. I'm not exactly sure by what you meant by undermining it. Could you explain some more on that?

 

[OrionDarkwood]

I am having trouble developing a way for my characters in my fantasy world to tell time. "Why not just use a sun dial? Or use the 24 hour system with day and night?" Well in my story, there are a few things to consider.

-In my story the world IS flat so there is no orbital revolutions.

-It is always day and never night

-The sun stays directly above the (flat) Earth and never moves.

See my problem now? I was thinking of having the sky turn different colors and shades to represent time changing but would like to know what you think. Trust me, the way I have the whole weird system set up WILL make sense in my story and it has to stay like this for major reasons I can't spoil. I think I am going to stick with the color-change idea but was hoping to get some inspiration.

I like the turning colors and the turning colors could be that the Earth may never move but doesn't mean other things are not moving and partially or wholly coming between them and the sun (which explains the colors). Otherwise they are always hourglasses but colors would be nice.. I can see it now Now during time purple is Disco with the Vikings LOL