The minds of immortals

[Pemry Janes]

Another issue immortals will have is memory. When you get to be a few hundred, perhaps even a thousand years old, can you still function if you remember everything well?

If their memory functions like ours does, than not only will they forget things they will misremember them. Another source of conflict if there is a group of immortals.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

I started a sci fi book with an immortal main character in it and came up with a few bits and pieces about them. First my guy was only 700, which made him a baby among his kind, and as such more of a rebel. The others lived in hiding terrified of being discovered and then potentially experimented upon until the secrets of their flesh were known.

Likewise they were detached from normal life, marriages and such things not engaged in. It's hard to risk giving your heart to someone you know will die and that you will then have to live on without. Similarly friendships always have to be tinged with sadness as the immortal knows they can't last. Everyone around them is impermanent.

I also gave them the trait of cowardice. My thinking was that the braver dare devil immortals woul have killed themselves off, while the timid endured. Also if they didn't heal right it would be a nightmare to go through eternity with say a broken back so they'd soon learn to say no to risk. But slowly, bit by bit, the fear of discovery grew within them until that fear became the focus of their lives. I left the whole godlike ego thing out because my thought was that even though they were immortal they still lived among mortals, and that would keep them somewhat grounded. Detached by necessity but not megalomaniacal.

One other thing to consider. Many of these guys have been around for millennia. So they are going to look somewhat out of place. Eyes that have seen too much. Ethnicities which are no longer common. Body types which through better diet etc, people have moved beyond. I mean Europeans have grown heading for a foot in height in the last thousand years. So these guys assuming they didn't get a proper diet as a kid might well be short and show the signs of deficiency diseases - eg rickets and bow legs. Of course it depends how you envision them.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[shangrila]

The main thing I've always thought of in regards to immortals basically comes back to the theory of relativity. If they've been alive for thousands of years than time will seem to move faster, same as it seems to for us mere mortals. For example, when you're a kid in school a year can last a LONG time, but when you hit middle age they seem to go by a LOT quicker.

I agree about memory as well. I'm sure some things would stick out, but the idea that someone that old can remember random stuff that a normal person couldn't always takes me out of the story. I mean, honestly, I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, but sometimes a dozen times my age remembers the taste of fish when they were young? No.

 

[wordwalker]

One of the hardest things about writing an immortal is that they should be more experienced than anyone less aged-- meaning, in some ways, they're smarter than any mortal (or author). But they would have weaknesses: being out of step with anything that's evolved quickly when they weren't watching it, maybe gaps in their memory, and a tendency to fall back on plans that have worked in the past.

(It almost explains Klaus on The Vampire Diaries, who took to solving every problem with taking a hero's friend hostage.)

The trick might be drawing the line between what are human truths or strategic viewpoints, that an immortal would learn to see in any situation better than anyone, and what would be the specifics that he might have to keep a conscious eye on.

Or, you have Fred Saberhagen's New Dracula searching a modern city and realizing he knew nothing about what hotel might be fancy enough for his enemy to use... but he knew a little about judging the cars that drove up to them.

 

[Armoured Rat]

I'm of the general belief that any sufficiently immortal being would be so far beyond anything a mortal could comprehend, that they're best left to the realm of plot device rather than character.

Also, hello, I'm new!

 

[GeekDavid]

I'm of the general belief that any sufficiently immortal being would be so far beyond anything a mortal could comprehend, that they're best left to the realm of plot device rather than character.

Also, hello, I'm new!

Welcome, Rat! Grab a chair and watch out for the forum cats.

 

[wordwalker]

I'm of the general belief that any sufficiently immortal being would be so far beyond anything a mortal could comprehend, that they're best left to the realm of plot device rather than character.

Been reading the Amber Roleplaying game? That's how it advises handling the characters' immortal family, including "I cast Perfect Invisibility and stab the Great Swordmaster in the back!" "He blocks it. He assumed someone would backstab right about then."

(Okay, that's a bit much. But Benedict is that good.)

 

[TrustMeImRudy]

The main thing I've always thought of in regards to immortals basically comes back to the theory of relativity. If they've been alive for thousands of years than time will seem to move faster, same as it seems to for us mere mortals. For example, when you're a kid in school a year can last a LONG time, but when you hit middle age they seem to go by a LOT quicker.

This is my belief. I generally write immortals in a negative light. Time loses meaning as it speeds up over the ages, eventually whole centuries would pass them in the blink of an eye unless they concentrate. A good hobby was mentioned earlier, a purpose, but after a long enough time spent fighting for something, eventually the goal would fall behind, and they would become dedicated to the actions and not the ideal, the pattern they developed. This was best summed up in a Green Lantern comic I read as a kid, where somebody asks one of the Guardians of the Universe why they first took the oath to protect the universe. After hesitating the Guardian - who as a group have been lately making heartless decisions for 'the greater good' - answers "I don't remember."

Then, there is the idea of why they sought immortality to begin with [assuming they werent born into it]. If it was a fear of death, I dont think that fear would ever leave them, because immortality, as I define it anyways, is age and disease immune plus good healing, but death by violence is possible. So they would become paranoid, and ever more dangerous.

This pretty much covers it, and has examples from fiction. But be warned, TvTropes Will Ruin Your Life.

 

[SomethingToPonder]

The one thing I would say to remember would be the fact that they can have experiences and learn from them, so they would no doubtedly have that "wise old man" sense around them. But imagine you had lived since medeavil times, You would not be superior to me in knowledge, well not due to your age anyway. Because you would have only been able to learn so much as human society knew at the time, every few hundred years or so you would have to re-learn everything. Once you learned about the earth being flat, and the majority of people who believed it died off, you would have to learn about it being round for instance.

You can only learn as much as society knows at the time. Just because a person has been around for thousands of years would not mean he was some fountain of knowledge.
Though he would be a genius in reading human behaviour and "street smarts" im sure.

 

[Addison]

The history of my world greatly involves an immortal. What I greatly considered-and what became a character/plot point-was his inability to have a life-long relationship. He'd out live the woman he loves, all of his friends will die and he'll keep feeling the pain of loss forever. I worry more about the character's heart than the head.

 

[Quillstine]

I seem to be gravitating to all the older threads here. Oh well, what’s a bit salt in an old wound between friends. We are friends right?!
Immortality to me is a hard concept to deal with until you get into the very specifics of how your particular immortality is being written.
Are we dealing with people who are truly immortal, nothing can harm them? Are they vulnerable but just don’t age? Is immortality something they are born or created with, is it obtained and is it a known option to obtain it? Etc…
To me, the big shift with immortality is about fear. Madness and capability of the brain I don’t feel come into play, the brain is a muscle and forgets and remembers as it sees relevant. If you were a human and immortal (which I think is the concept of this thread? So you somehow became an unexpected immortal among a race of mortals), you’d remember as you do now and forget as you do now. You might remember big events from 50,000 years ago (say your one true love) and not remember what color draws you put on this morning. I read a statistic somewhere that if you brain was not capable of forgetting, it would aneurism from overload within 1 minute. So it’s in and out all the time, take away the degradation of age and what’s to say your brain would not stay as virile as it is over the course of your immortal life.
Motivation, which has come up here, is the big issue. I don’t think you would necessarily become power ridden if you were immortal. Throw guilt, concern and morality to the wind. If I were to kill a man, my guilt would not be driven by my mortality but his. Why would that change if I lived forever? If anything I would just feel sad and lonely, and only on account of not really being able to relate to anyone, assuming of course I was the only immortal creature. If you go around killing people, fair chance is you wanted to do it before you become immortal and just no longer fear being killed for it! Not that immortality made you no longer care for life so you started slashing.
I never use total immortality or invincibility as a rule, because the fear of death and pain is too valuable a motivator to remove from a character. Take away death, and the hero would just run into the bad situation without a whim of fear. The Antagonist was simply being unstoppable and do all his evil doings….. Where is the fun in that? If there is an omnipotent being, they are exactly that! There immortality is part of what they are; things are seen as a balance. They are a step removed from humanity and tend to be more a guide and appear generally emotionless.
If a human has become immortal, he is never completely so and he still has a burning reason to “live”. There is still a void driving him in the story. I am not saying you would have no motivation if you were immortal, I see there are always things to learn and do. Things will always change, immortal or not you’ll never run out of emotions to experience! I just feel a lack of motivation compelling enough to propel a plot! Nothing would stop you from simply going and achieving whatever challenge the story presented!

 

[TrustMeImRudy]

I worry more about the character's heart than the head.

To me they are tied together. His heart, his emotions, color the way he thinks about things. His shifting thoughts produce different emotions. Time will lengthen and the immortal will see lives as mere minutes, and what does that really mean? Killing someone is wrong, thats a whole life wasted, but what if its only a few minutes wasted? Thats what it seems like to him. Im not saying it will make the immortal a slasher killer, just that the sanctity of life will begin to fade away. It isnt raging frothing mad murderiness...its apathy.

There is still a void driving him in the story. I am not saying you would have no motivation if you were immortal, I see there are always things to learn and do. Things will always change, immortal or not you’ll never run out of emotions to experience! I just feel a lack of motivation compelling enough to propel a plot! Nothing would stop you from simply going and achieving whatever challenge the story presented!

But why do we do things? Without a motivation, learning things feels pointless. I think almost everyone has experienced that, where doing something seems just utterly without point. It wont change anything. Nihilists take that to the next level and I feel most people burdened with immortality would become nihilists at some point. Everyone dies, no one stays with them, time is moving so fast, memory is fleeting, whats the point? We regulars have to survive, we have to leave something for our children so they can not only survive but thrive and be happy, because thats an impulse, to procreate. An immortal though, why procreate? I'm wondering if that impulse, which at its root is a species instinct, would remain? But anyways, my point is that motivation will fade. Like I said before, even if they find a purpose or a hobby enough failures or even enough successes will lead them to lose faith in their power to enact lasting change. If we do something that impacts the world for a hundred years, isnt that amazing? A grand achievement. If an immortal does that...oh great he managed to give earth a peaceful lunch.
So apathy. Thats my point. Gods, I would hate to be immortal.

don’t think you would necessarily become power ridden if you were immortal. Throw guilt, concern and morality to the wind. If I were to kill a man, my guilt would not be driven by my mortality but his. Why would that change if I lived forever?

I wouldnt say power ridden, I think thats a possibility but not the main one. But guilt concern and morality would fade I think because our guilt in ending a life is tied to the fact that it relates to us. We kill that guy, it hurts because we see us in his eyes, that could be me dying there: thats why when you're mad at someone they say to look at it through their eyes. So if your immortal, what does it matter if a man loses a few years? His life is so small compared to yours, like those flies that live only a day compared to us. Sentience and sapience comes into it as well, but eventually they would start to think, what does it matter? That one life in the eteranl flow of time is a dustmote to the immortal.

 

[Abbas-Al-Morim]

Isn't it statistically impossible to live thousands of years? Unless of course you're immune to disease and have an amazing constitution. I mean, it's highly probable that in the first thousand years of your life, you'll be hit by a bus, be in a car crash or maybe you'll slip on the bathroom floor and crack your skull.

I don't get the whole thousand year old elven warrior thing. I mean no matter how good you are, if you're in combat situations throughout your entire life it's not going to be very long. If you're smart, skilled and lucky you might make it to retirement (at the ripe age of forty). But even if you stay just as quick and limber as a youth with the added experience of decades of battle, you'll still catch an arrow sometime. Magic users could of course protect them but in most setting magic is seen as dangerous. If you're constantly at risk of being possessed by demons who are infinitely more powerful and experienced than you (no matter how old you become) then statistically, you'll get caught sooner rather than later.

Unless of course you use the actual definition of immortality (as opposed to the Fantasy one). In that case nothing can kill you - which of course makes the story rather dull. It would take extraordinary writing to make an immortal character come to life (no pun intended).

 

[TrustMeImRudy]

It's also statistically impossible for the universe to have come to exist, but luckily we think it did happen!

My immortals are always recluses anyways.

 

[Abbas-Al-Morim]

It's also statistically impossible for the universe to have come to exist, but luckily we think it did happen!

My immortals are always recluses anyways.

Well yes, of course it's possible for a few creatures to survive for thousands of years but that doesn't explain the very common "elf warrior societies". I'm not saying it bothers me much, but it isn't realistic for so many people to survive for so long despite the enormous odds stacked against them.

 

[TrustMeImRudy]

You're right of course. I have no come back except to say that the unlikely happens so often we have begun to call it likely anyways.

 

[wordwalker]

Statistically impossible? Hmm.

Most "nigh-immortality" does include near immunity to disease and infection, and at least some ability to heal better over time. And a large share of battle casualties weren't instant kills, so the better an immortal was at protecting his head, throat, and other spots (say with big chunks of armor), the more likely he could keep fighting until he either won or went down with a "serious wound" that he lived through. Depending on his skill, the power, and whether anyone knew about what he was.

(Highlander starts looking more and more accurate, at least in its basics. And, elves don't too have many of these "insurances," but I can see them knowing a lot about herbs and healings to raise the odds of a wounded elf getting his proper centuries of life. Might explain why they like negotiation, arrows, ambush, and magic tactics too: safety.)

Of course the real question is, why play that kind of Russian Roulette at all, especially when you have eternity to lose? And if you did, how long before your number was up anyway?

I guess it does come down to how your mind adapts to immortality. Cowardice or hermit plans make good sense, but the other side is, what are you living for? Do you become fascinated with finding new experiences and/or stubbornly figuring staying alive has become the goal in itself? Do you get involved with people or their causes, something that would always be fascinating but might get harder the more centuries you see people fall prey to the same weaknesses or just die out or (for cultures) change beyond what you're used to?

Or every so often, do you want to turn around and use all that self-preservation training to fight back? If people you care about (or your secret) are in danger, how fast do you jump in-- or, sometimes, just say "What the hell, I've gone fifty YEARS without taking risks and training myself to beat anyone if I still have to, if I don't get a bit of action now is there really a point to living another three hundred?" If real death is the only risk left for you, maybe sometimes (just for a skirmish or two, and in a cause you care about) you have to flirt with it to still feel alive.

 

[Luís Santana]

Is this something you've put any thought into and if so what are your thoughts on it?
Do you have immortals in your WIP and how do they view themselves and their lives compared to mortals and their lives?

In my opinion, to be immortal (undying) or mortal (dying) in our POV condition (as human beings) is just about the same.

All my characters are immortals!

They just are.

NO MORTALS.

 

[pmmg]

These threads are old. I am not sure anyone is still waiting for an answer on this.

I do like many of the old topics, but I am not sure we can help the OP anymore.

 

[Hybris]

I recommand this novel Underland | Royal Road, about that. A bit dark, but if you want to really touch the subject, you don't really have the choice (and zorry, but you have to read almost all to really go into the immortality problems...). Scythe, by Neal Shusterman, also talks about that, but in a less fantasy-like way.