The proper structure of dialogue and paragraphs.

[JCFarnham]

As far as punctuation is concerned, yes, there are conventions, and no, it is not correct to pick which you will follow and which you will change. Sure, if you're trying to be "different," you can make up your own rules, but you can expect people to be annoyed when they read it - IF they read it - and if you're looking to get published, I would suggest NOT doing so.

So you see absolutely no merit what so ever in experimenting? Ginsberg, Morrison, Kerouac and the like may as well have not existed then and aren't at all legendary, right? Doing things purely to get published is not the way to write [perfectly punctuated vampire romance may sell, but what good does it do society?]. Following a publishers format guidelines is one thing. Selling out for the sake of profit is another.

Sorry for the soapbox heh.

 

[Lord Darkstorm]

I look at it this way, if you wish to try and cash in on harry potter, or twilight, or whatever is selling like hotcakes tomorrow, go for it. I'd much rather be the one creating the next best seller than trying to imitate the last one.

Now that we have deviated way off the original thread....

 

[Shadoe]

So you see absolutely no merit what so ever in experimenting? Ginsberg, Morrison, Kerouac and the like may as well have not existed then and aren't at all legendary, right? Doing things purely to get published is not the way to write [perfectly punctuated vampire romance may sell, but what good does it do society?]. Following a publishers format guidelines is one thing. Selling out for the sake of profit is another.

I see no merit in experimenting if you are attempting to tell a story. I've met a lot of people who tried to write using their own rules rather than, you know, English. I've yet to read anything from them that was actually, you know, readable. The bottom line is, if you want to be a "writer," you must first KNOW the rules and how to follow them. Then, if you choose to break them, you must do so for a reason, and understand why and how you're breaking them. Just to be "different," or to avoid "selling out" is not a good reason. In the examples provided, improper placement of commas and quote marks is just improper, not "style."

And that's my soapbox. I've edited fan fiction. A lot of really, really awful fan fiction, so "experimenting" with grammar annoys me.

 

[JCFarnham]

And I'll have to disagree with you their Shadoe. Removing commas can increase pace, add a rather vocal cadence to the writing, immitate the ramblings of the insane, characters who can't form coherent thought for what ever reason and so on and so on. I could go on but there are plently of reasons for experimentation. And while you may think to avoid selling out is a poor reason to experiment in form, art [which creative writing is] is the sole domain of experimentation. With out it, writing would not have been prefixed with creative and we certainly would not have some of frankly fabulous directors and writers we have today who aren't afraid to push boundaries with out early modernist and beat writers and poets.

Read Beloved by Morrison and tell me, when you get to the three, stand-out, chapter-long monologues from the main characters [specifically Beloved's], that you see no point in it.

In an attempt steer back to the point of the thread [in a round about way], while pushing the boundaries with regards to form and structure may have publishers up in arms [ie, if you want to SELL stick to their rules], it does not further the art of creative writing. Traditional form is indeed indent, double spacing, 12pt [possibly courier] font, 250 words a page and so on, which is all well and good, but completely dismissing experimentation where possible within the writing structur as detrimental to plot, is short-sighted in my opinion.

I just don't want anyone to be afraid to write however they wish stylistically [this doesn't mean poor use of language, specifically spelling]. Fan fiction is escapist at best, and hardly EVER written to fulfill the purpose of exploring our chosen craft [of course a few do excell where a lot of awful fic writers fail, I'm not knocking the form in the slightest, I write fan fiction too sometimes]. Did Shakespeare care that his high-society academic references went over the heads of the lower classes, and vice versa? It is more than possible to experiment and tell a story, possibly even a ground breaking story at that. [Not that I'm claiming to be wonderful, I'm nothing to write home about and I know it..] Understand what I'm getting at?

I think I may start a new thread in regards to experimentation in CREATIVE writing so we don't clog up the TS's thread with off topic stuffs. Feel free to join me and continue this discussion ^_^

 

[Shadoe]

And I'll have to disagree with you their Shadoe. Removing commas can increase pace, add a rather vocal cadence to the writing, immitate the ramblings of the insane, characters who can't form coherent thought for what ever reason and so on and so on. I could go on but there are plently of reasons for experimentation.

I'm not saying you must never, ever, for any reason even consider breaking a grammatical rule. Fiction writers do that all the time. I'm saying anyone who uses words as their tool should thoroughly understand grammatical rules and know how to use them. Then they may break them for a reason. Just doing something like, for instance, "I'm never going to use commas because that's my style," is silly. It's not artistic, it's just "too lazy to learn where the commas go." (And yes, I've seen this sort of thing happen a lot.)

I just don't want anyone to be afraid to write however they wish stylistically [this doesn't mean poor use of language, specifically spelling].

Spelling - like commas - is grammar. Why not choose your own spelling of things as well as your own grammar? Isn't using proper spelling as much "selling out" as using proper grammar? There are plenty of authors who've become "creative" with their spelling because that was their "style." (Yes, published authors too.)

You are absolutely correct in that writers shouldn't be afraid to experiment with their style. A unique style sometimes does add to the writing, just as breaking grammatical rules does. But first understand the correct grammar, spelling, punctuation - then understand when breaking a rule will be effective, rather than a distraction. For instance, if you're trying to tell a complicated story with lots of emotion and subtle undercurrents, the last thing you want to do is experiment with grammar, because that will distract from the story. You don't want to take the reader out of the story. Of course, sometimes creative grammar will put the reader more fully into the story. But understanding the tool will tell you which is which.

 

[JCFarnham]

With out proper spelling you've taken away the one chance the words had to mean anything, so I think its perfectly legitimate to single out spelling from the rest of the pack in this case. When exploring form, if the words aren't recognisable as english then I think that we can agree at that it becomes completely unreadable.

So I think we're agreed! I've always thought of understanding grammar and so on as the bare minimum for anyone who wants to write, so maybe I'm taking that for granted. I'd never dreaming of telling anyone who didn't have a good grip on English to push boundaries, that's running before you can walk.

Anyhow, I promise to leave this thread alone now, and let it resume its intended course