Too few female characters?

[Trick]

If I want to write a freaking story about a world where women are normal height while all men are three feet tall midgets, so women easily push them around all the time, I will write it, and that's all.

That.Would.Be.Awesome!

I didn't quote this part but you later stated that you thought some men wouldn't like/appreciate this, obviously not verbatim. I think it could be great! But this is not really how I was coming at the discussion before. I was specifically speaking about a fantasy world where the men and women appear, on the surface, to be the same as they are on earth. However, you make a good point in saying, that is not necessary in our genre.

 

[Trick]

@Penpilot,

In of the first case you show, the female athlete is not going up against the "best." And she threw from less of a distance - that is not a fair contest. In the second, she was beaten out for a spot in the NHL by men. I said, "When you bring the best of both together, the men win, every time." and that still stands but it honestly only applies to athletic pursuits. In nothing else is this true, and in many cases, the opposite is.

Sorry, just an itch I need to scratch on this. Jet Li is an actor. What he does on screen has more in common with ballet dancing than it does with martial arts.

Jet Li had fifteen gold medals in Wushu before the age of nineteen. I think that makes him an impressive martial artist. But yes he is also a talented actor.

 

[Guy]

In a fight strength is an advantage, not a guarantee.

Weapons level the playing field a bit.

In the world of my characters, female warriors aren't unusual. They aren't typical, but there are enough of them that no one gives it a second thought. My MC is a world class warrior because the gods said so. Amazons in my world are a species, like elves and dwarves. Durganian Amazons are horse archers, of average to smallish size but of equal strength to human men. Average height for Veranian Amazons is 6 foot six and they're at least 5 times stronger than the average human man. Why? Because it's the fantasy genre and I'm the writer and I said so.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

An all-female species?

(In case I'm way off, it's a serious question. I've done that with pixies, so the idea isn't so far-fetched to me.)

 

[Penpilot]

@Penpilot,

In of the first case you show, the female athlete is not going up against the "best." And she threw from less of a distance - that is not a fair contest. In the second, she was beaten out for a spot in the NHL by men. I said, "When you bring the best of both together, the men win, every time." and that still stands but it honestly only applies to athletic pursuits. In nothing else is this true, and in many cases, the opposite is.

You also said.

There may be a very rare women who can compete in a professional sport with men but I have never heard of one.

In the case of Manon Rheaume, she competed at a professional level with men. I never said or implied she dominated, nor was my post intended to address the argument of best on best. You wondered about a woman being able to compete at a professional level. I just gave you one.

 

[Guy]

An all-female species?

(In case I'm way off, it's a serious question. I've done that with pixies, so the idea isn't so far-fetched to me.)

No. The men gravitate more towards administrative and scholarly pursuits.

The story I have posted in my portfolio is about one of my Amazons. I explain a bit about their society, culture, etc. in it.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Trick, I am not really going to write a story with a setting like that.

I said that to display my point that we are Fantasy writers after all, and that we should not worry so much about the constant gender issues that have been discussed in this thread and many others. These topics keep generating loads of attention in Mythic Scribes, over and over again, and I cannot understand why.

From my personal point of view, these threads are getting quite annoying. Whenever that it happens, it's all about women this and women that and women this also and everyone talks about this nonstop like we were some alien species or perhaps the greatest attraction in this side of the galaxy.

It's better to just write your characters without thinking so much about all this stuff.

 

[Trick]

Trick, I am not really going to write a story with a setting like that.

I didn't really think you were, just that it would be awesome. I don't disagree about this topic having an odd momentum. It wasn't my intention for this to spiral, obviously, but I'm glad I asked my original question. I got the advice I needed... and this just exploded.

 

[glutton]

It's better to just write your characters without thinking so much about all this stuff.

It's good to know a little bit about reality so that even if you decide to be unrealistic, you at least have an idea of when you're being unrealistic which also helps with consistency. Otherwise you run the risk of writing stuff like having a character who swings around a 50 lb sword with grace and speed, yet is easily overpowered by a slightly bigger than average normal man XD

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I actually appreciate threads like these when they're handled with tact and respect. They offer an opportunity to persuade & learn, even if they are somewhat repetitive.

I do agree discussions like these are massively weighted toward how writers should include the female gender, but at least we're having that discussion. That tells me thinking is heading in the right direction. But I do see how some may find that annoying and tiresome.

In the end, Sheila is right (along with other members who said the same). Just write how that one character would act, without concern of gender averages & exceptions. That practice will yield a far more interesting cast.

 

[Tom]

Jet Li is an actor. What he does on screen has more in common with ballet dancing than it does with martial arts.

Whoo! Obviously you don't know what goes into ballet, then.

I danced ballet for several years before being sucked in by fencing, and I've found that the strength I developed as a dancer is equal to or greater than the strength needed for fencing. A lot of martial artists and professional sports players (such as American football players) take ballet as part of their training, because it builds up strength, stamina, agility, and coordination. Ballet may look ethereal, but all those airy, delicate-looking moves take a lot of strength to perform. (I should know--I pulled a muscle while dancing a sequence because I just wasn't physically up for it yet.)

Take a look at this dancer's muscles, if you don't believe me:

I know I'm taking this out of context, but I think your analogy was flawed. Ballet is just as demanding a sport as martial arts, and people who do it just as strong.

 

[Steerpike]

There have been NFL football players who trained with ballet and said it was important to their success in football.

Can Ballet Lessons Improve Your Football Skills? | Healthy Living - azcentral.com

 

[Penpilot]

Whoo! Obviously you don't know what goes into ballet, then.

I know I'm taking this out of context, but I think your analogy was flawed. Ballet is just as demanding a sport as martial arts, and people who do it just as strong.

I think you're misunderstanding my analogy. It's not about athletic ability, because lifting another human above your head while standing on your toes takes tremendous strength, agility, etc.

The statement was made that a woman couldn't even beat Jet Li, an actor, in a martial arts fight. I compared what he does in the movies to ballet. Ballet doesn't involve slamming people to the mat or punches to the face, not intentional any way. The same can be said for movie martial arts. Ballet and movie martial arts take athletic ability and are both putting on a show.

So tell me where that analogy is wrong.

Also think about the initial statement. It implies a female martial artist at the top of her game doesn't stand a chance against a 50 year old actor, who hasn't fought competitively in over 30 years.

 

[glutton]

Also think about the initial statement. It implies a female martial artist at the top of her game doesn't stand a chance against a 50 year old actor, who hasn't fought competitively in over 30 years.

Jet could probably lose to a number of female fighters, not sure about the particular one in question, but if we were talking about his Expendables co-star Dolph who's also in his 50's and hasn't fought in a long time... I'd be hesitant to pick most against him. Women like Lana Stefanac and Gabi Garcia might beat Dolph though, look them up.

Stats lol.

Also this post was brought to you by the mention of Ronda and Jet Li in the same thread making me think of Expendables.

 

[Tom]

I think you're misunderstanding my analogy. It's not about athletic ability, because lifting another human above your head while standing on your toes takes tremendous strength, agility, etc.

The statement was made that a woman couldn't even beat Jet Li, an actor, in a martial arts fight. I compared what he does in the movies to ballet. Ballet doesn't involve slamming people to the mat or punches to the face, not intentional any way. The same can be said for movie martial arts. Ballet and movie martial arts take athletic ability and are both putting on a show.

So tell me where that analogy is wrong.

Also think about the initial statement. It implies a female martial artist at the top of her game doesn't stand a chance against a 50 year old actor, who hasn't fought competitively in over 30 years.

Yeah, I see your point now. And I agree, a female martial artist could stand a chance at taking down Jet Li.

At the time I made the post, I was under the impression that you were saying that ballet shouldn't be taken seriously as a sport. And yes, as I said earlier, it is a sport. Ballet is built on the same key principals as many martial arts: strength, stamina, flexibility, etc. It may be practiced mostly for entertainment, but tell any dancer that ballet is not a sport and they'll take offense.

Plus, a lot of ballet moves can (surprisingly) be turned into fighting moves. A spin with a kick-out can be modified into a roundhouse pretty easily. In fencing, a gran jete from ballet can be turned into a balaestra, a forceful jump-kick motion that both sets up an attack and flusters your opponent.

Sorry I took this so seriously, but I really felt I needed to clear up some misconceptions about ballet.

 

[Trick]

The statement was made that a woman couldn't even beat Jet Li, an actor, in a martial arts fight. I compared what he does in the movies to ballet. Ballet doesn't involve slamming people to the mat or punches to the face, not intentional any way. The same can be said for movie martial arts. Ballet and movie martial arts take athletic ability and are both putting on a show.

So tell me where that analogy is wrong.

Also think about the initial statement. It implies a female martial artist at the top of her game doesn't stand a chance against a 50 year old actor, who hasn't fought competitively in over 30 years.

The original statement was:

That is impressive and she could probably beat many/most men. I doubt she could best Bruce Lee or even Jet Li for that matter. My own point, for what it's worth (about $0.02), is not that women cannot achieve athletic greatness but that the highest level of athletic greatness is dominated by men.

I didn't say she couldn't beat Jet Li now, though I didn't differentiate either. Take her, as you say, at the top of her game, and put her against Bruce Lee at the top of his game (no contest in my opinion, even for the best male martial artists in their prime) or Jet Li at the top of his game (fifteen time gold medalist in Wushu), who retired from competition at nineteen which means he was likely in prime condition for the next 10 to 15 years if not longer. I would bet on him, in that condition, against any female martial artist. I'd bet on him now against most people, in fact. I just know a martial artist in their prime is an especially dangerous opponent and do take it into consideration.

I would also like to point out, if Jet Li or someone of similar skill were to fight, say, a huge Viking while they were going berserk, I'd bet on the Viking. If the Viking were a woman or a man, that kind of pain tolerance and size disparity makes quite the advantage.

 

[glutton]

I have no idea who would win between Jet and that woman but the thing I would like to point is wushu is pretty well known to be more about showing off forms than actual fighting, thus it's hard to gauge how good Jet Li is/was in a fight based on being a wushu champion. However I don't know how proficient in practical fighting skills the woman in the clip is either since that is not really a move you would see in a real fight, so maybe he would destroy her who knows. I do suspect Rowdy Ronda Rousey would easily beat Jet now or in his youth because she is a proven competitive fighter with monstrous functional strength for a woman and at least as big as him.

I would also like to point out, if Jet Li or someone of similar skill were to fight, say, a huge Viking while they were going berserk, I'd bet on the Viking. If the Viking were a woman or a man, that kind of pain tolerance and size disparity makes quite the advantage.

Yessir, I feel it is so.

 

[Trick]

I have no idea who would win between Jet and that woman but the thing I would like to point is wushu is pretty well known to be more about showing off forms than actual fighting, thus it's hard to gauge how good Jet Li is/was in a fight based on being a wushu champion. However I don't know how proficient in practical fighting skills the woman in the clip is either since that is not really a move you would see in a real fight, so maybe he would destroy her who knows. I do suspect Rowdy Ronda Rousey would easily beat Jet now or in his youth because she is a proven competitive fighter with monstrous functional strength for a woman and at least as big as him.



Yessir, I feel it is so.

If it were Bruce Lee, and only him, I might bet on him against someone like that. He was probably the closest thing to a superhuman martial artist that ever truly existed but otherwise... a huge seasoned warrior of any kind is definitely going to have a major advantage over a small martial artist for the same reason an average guy has an advantage against an average woman. It only takes one mistake to lose to a bigger, stronger opponent. I know from experience, I'm thin and I've got a brother who is, or at least was, literally twice my size. I'm faster but he can actually throw me; that changes the whole dynamic of a fight. Once you add skills to balance these things, you're betting on an entirely different contest though.

 

[glutton]

Once you add skills to balance these things, you're betting on an entirely different contest though.

Yes but it's not as if a large fighter cannot have skills... Dolph and Randy Couture, another Expendables cast members, would be good examples of size plus skill - although Randy is not HUGE, about 6' and 220 lbs in his prime, but he was a heavyweight.

The quest to turn this into the Expendables thread continues...

 

[Trick]

Yes but it's not as if a large fighter cannot have skills... Dolph and Randy Couture, another Expendables cast members, would be good examples of size plus skill - although Randy is not HUGE, about 6' and 220 lbs in his prime, but he was a heavyweight.

The quest to turn this into the Expendables thread continues...

No disagreement but I think this is more a question of agility, which is not the same as speed. No big man will move as fast as a compact martial artist. If he gets one good hit in however...

I told this story earlier in this thread but I'll copy it here (for effect of course):

A friend of my family was security at a hockey game. He watched a little guy (5'6" maybe 120lbs) pick a fight with a big guy (over 6', 250 lbs or so). A lot of shoving took place and then abruptly ended when the big man punched the small man once and killed him. He didn't mean to and cried in the office while he waited for the police. The little guy was definitely faster but how much did that really matter?