Using AI effectively

[Devor]

Okay, so I saw something in another thread that made me realize that some people might not realize how powerful the AI models are because they're not using it effectively.

I got this out of bing's version of ChatGPT.

Zephyria: The City of Blades and Bones

Nestled amidst the harsh dunes of the Marrow Wastes, Zephyria stands as a testament to the resilience and might of its people. A city-state renowned for its formidable warriors and enigmatic rituals, it thrives on the trade route known as the Vein of Kharos, a lifeline amidst the desolation.

Environment The city is encircled by the skeletal remains of ancient beasts, serving both as a defense and a grim reminder of the dangers lurking beyond. The air is thick with the scent of iron and sandalwood, the latter used in copious amounts to mask the stench of blood from the ritual grounds.

Culture Zephyrians are a proud people, valuing strength and honor above all. From a young age, children are trained in the art of combat, honing their skills to protect their home. The society is stratified, with the warrior class at the apex, followed by traders, and then the artisans.

Weapons Their armaments are a blend of practicality and ceremony. The Xiphos Blade, a short, double-edged sword, is a warrior’s primary weapon, paired with the Aegis Shield, imbued with runes to ward off the dark magic of the wastes. The Tlachtli Sling, a ranged weapon, launches enchanted stones that scream like fallen spirits as they fly.

Magics Magic in Zephyria is twofold. The Breath of Ares is a battle enchantment, granting warriors temporary invincibility, while the Veil of Xipe Totec is a sacrificial magic, believed to renew the land’s fertility. Both magics require a blood offering, a tribute to the gods of war and harvest.

Politics The city is ruled by the Council of the Exalted, composed of the most distinguished warriors and priests. They decree the laws, oversee the rituals, and maintain relations with the caravans that brave the wastes. The current leader, High Exarch Leonax, is a veteran of many battles, revered for his strategic mind and unwavering resolve.

In Zephyria, life is a cycle of training, trading, and tribute. The city’s survival hinges on the strength of its warriors and the appeasement of its deities. It is a place where the line between life and death is as thin as the edge of a blade, and only the strongest can hope to endure.

If I were interested in actually creating this city, I think it's got a number of useful ideas here. If it sounds different than the results you've been getting, well, here was the prompt:

Hey there! Take a deep breath. You are writing an entry in RPG campaign book for a unique location. The entry is about 400 words in the style of a tabletop RPG entry in a fantasy campaign guide. Create a small fantasy city which combines warrior elements of Ancient Sparta with the ritualistic and human sacrifice elements of the Aztecs into a single streamlined culture. The city should be located on a trade route running through a barren wasteland full of monsters and requires ample defenses. Please include at least one magical concept inspired by each culture. Go into detail about the environment, culture, weapons, magics, and politics of the city. Remember that you are creating a city with a single fantasy culture and use names that represent the style of that fantasy culture. Do not directly reference Sparta or the Aztecs in the entry. Streamline the entry and be as clear as possible.

You can save the prompt and tweak it however you want to suit your needs. Eventually you get a whole list of your prompt templates. And of course, you can ask the AI to tweak it or rewrite it based on any follow up ideas you might get, but the above came from just the original prompt.

They call it "prompt engineering" when you tweak and fiddle with your prompts to get better results. It's rapidly become a whole thing.

 

[Queshire]

...
So is this where we're supposed to take the debate from the other thread then?

 

[Devor]

...
So is this where we're supposed to take the debate from the other thread then?

If you want? That's not what I was after here. There are legal and ethical concerns about AI, but the technology isn't going away. There's more than enough material in the public domain to run both the program a language model or an image generator. It only makes sense to figure out how to use it to support your own projects, even while wanting to support other creators who may be getting hurt by AI.

 

[Finchbearer]

I think it’s a fine and fun way to create an RPG campaign, but even with an in depth prompt like this it still feels ‘AI’ as we know it. One might want to amend some of the names and descriptive terms to give it a more original flavour. Essentially it could be a good sounding board to either clarify an existing idea or to create a starting point from which you can utilise and go from there. Inputting more prompts to refine it only goes so far too before it just kind of starts to repeat itself, which is when IMO you would need to make your own ideas up. For fiction writing it would far more of a sounding board type thing, but I’d say that you’d still want to do your own research to make your worldbuilding rich and full of a depth that AI cannot reach.

 

[skip.knox]

Rather than critique the specific writing, I'll take Devor's post at face value, as a source for ideas. Taken that way, it's hardly different (save in scope and sophistication) that the "writing prompts" that have burdened ... er, inspired ... writers for generations. So, how might I be "inspired"?

>formidable warriors and enigmatic rituals
Clumsy wording, as those two don't really go together, but it does get me thinking of how I might make a connection between formidable warriors and rituals of any sort.

>it thrives on the trade route known
So, yeah, a city-state full of warriors in the midst of a desert seems unlikely, but if there's a trade route nearby, then those warriors would hire out as guards. This was done regularly on the pilgrimage routes in the Holy Land, for both Christian and Muslim pilgrims, plus for the trade caravans. Already I can see story possibilities there.

Weapons and magic are ok, but nothing that particularly catches my attention. I wonder how I might tweak the response to change that. But the references to "the waste" are just vague enough to make me think about it further. Doesn't spark any specific ideas, but I feel like that could be fleshed out to advantage. I can see the specialty guards accompanying caravans to protect not so much against bandits as against the dark magics out there. And that some caravan routes would be comparatively safer but longer, while the faster and more profitable routes run closer to the dangerous magic.

At all events, to me this is already head and shoulders above the usual one-line writing prompts to be found online and in books and at writing workshops (all due respect to such prompts and exercises hereabouts!). If AI accomplished no more than this, I'd say it was of some measurable benefit to writers. I leave the damage AI is doing or might do in the future for a separate thread.

Prompt Engineer. Sure, why not?

 

[Devor]

I think it’s a fine and fun way to create an RPG campaign....

Just to be clear, I mentioned a tabletop RPG campaign guide in the prompt to guide the AI and set a clear quality standard that elevated its response. I would have included that direction whether the idea was for a game or a book or anything else.

...but even with an in depth prompt like this it still feels ‘AI’ as we know it. One might want to amend some of the names and descriptive terms to give it a more original flavour. Essentially it could be a good sounding board to either clarify an existing idea or to create a starting point from which you can utilise and go from there. Inputting more prompts to refine it only goes so far too before it just kind of starts to repeat itself, which is when IMO you would need to make your own ideas up.

Ohh, for sure. The reply is much better than you'd get with a simpler prompt, but it's still not good enough to run with on its own. But it's good enough to be useful. That's all I'm suggesting here.

For fiction writing it would far more of a sounding board type thing, but I’d say that you’d still want to do your own research to make your worldbuilding rich and full of a depth that AI cannot reach.

More than that, I'd suggest that even with the AI there's no substitute for creative judgement. The prompt was to combine three ideas: Spartan warriors, Aztec ritualism, and a trade city in a monster-filled wasteland. IMO, those ideas work well together. The spartan warriors and aztec ritualism show the kind of extreme lengths people might go through to hold a path in a wasteland full of monsters. What an AI can't do is pinpoint the ideas that work that well together. But it can suggest a few things that are good enough to get you started.

 

[pmmg]

Hey AI,

Write a response to this prompt: That's not what I was after here. There are legal and ethical concerns about AI, but the technology isn't going away. There's more than enough material in the public domain to run both the program a language model or an image generator. It only makes sense to figure out how to use it to support your own projects, even while wanting to support other creators who may be getting hurt by AI.


I completely agree that there are important legal and ethical considerations to take into account when it comes to AI technology. It's clear that AI is here to stay and will continue to play a significant role in various industries. It's crucial for individuals and organizations to understand how to navigate these concerns while still utilizing AI to support their projects.

By being mindful of the impact that AI can have on other creators and supporting their work, we can ensure that innovation and creativity are still valued in a world that is increasingly influenced by technology. It's important to strike a balance between leveraging AI for our own projects and considering the implications it may have on others in the creative community. Ultimately, finding ways to ethically and responsibly incorporate AI into our work can help us move forward in a productive and sustainable manner.


^There, that's what I think. Glad I thought of it.

 

[Finchbearer]

Just to be clear, I mentioned a tabletop RPG campaign guide in the prompt to guide the AI and set a clear quality standard that elevated its response. I would have included that direction whether the idea was for a game or a book or anything else.

Thing is, I think AI needs a distinction. And for an RPG this is perfect. You don’t need to be worrying about originality for something that is just a bit of fun. For a book I personally would take an entirely different approach.

On the subject of AI not being able to take two themes and successfully combine them, I agree, it sucks. This is where a human brain can make it make sense though, because to me there’s no such thing as ‘these two themes cannot go together’, because we have something called creative freedom to make it make sense. Just because historically theme A opposed theme B, we can break all the rules when creating. AI is too forumliac at this point in time to understand how to fully mesh something as complex as that together for the sake of a creative avenue.

On the language feeling like AI, even the first sentence feels totally AI - words like Zephyria and phrases such as ‘Nestled amidst’ just give it away to my eyes.

 

[skip.knox]

I wonder what would result in me summarize one of my own books, turning it into a prompt, then see what AI fed back to me. I don't know that the exercise would be useful, but it might be amusing at the least and maybe even interesting.

 

[Penpilot]

words like Zephyria

I googled a lot of the more exotic words, and they're all real words from different languages. "The name Zephyria derives from zephyr, a light wind." There's a mini-entry in wikipedia for it.

AI is a tool. The skill of the person handling it will determine it's effectiveness, and whether it's used to do harm or help. This isn't true AI, so I wonder if there's a possibility of it simply lifting whole sections from existing works, and if someone tries to pass that off as their own, that's going to be trouble.

In general, I think it can be a good source for fuelling ideas. What came out of Devor's prompt could nicely be used as a basis for something, but I'd definitely do a double check to see if the AI was stealing or not.

I wonder what would result in me summarize one of my own books, turning it into a prompt, then see what AI fed back to me. I don't know that the exercise would be useful, but it might be amusing at the least and maybe even interesting.

When ChatGBT first came out, I put in the one paragraph summary for my WIP, and it spat out something very generic. It was definitely amusing, but I could see how it could be useful in the brainstorming stage, especially as one develops their prompting skills.

 

[CreatureHollow]

I have a friend who likes using things like ChatGPT here and there as a launchpad to get the ball rolling whenever he gets stuck on something.

Haven't really used it myself. I can see the value in what it can be used for and acknowledge the tech won't be going anywhere, but the way these things are built up at present has me skeptical in a lot of ways. Leaves me with a looming feeling of whenever the hammer drops it will drop hard and hit everyone involved, willingly or otherwise-- ai user, artist, writer, and everything in between. Maybe overly cautious on my part lol but this is a big thing with lines to still be defined.

 

[skip.knox]

I need a counter-prompt function. My usual problem is too many ideas all charging forward at once like poorly-trained infantry.

 

[Devor]

I googled a lot of the more exotic words, and they're all real words from different languages. "The name Zephyria derives from zephyr, a light wind." There's a mini-entry in wikipedia for it.

I figured as much. I tried to get the prompt to fix the naming problem, and that was as close I could get it. At least it's less jarring than some of the more generic prompts.

 

[skip.knox]

I recently read how engineers are now training AI to modify prompts, making them more accurate and richer in results. In the example I saw, a simple prompt of "a boy on a pony" produced a result that was a bit malformed and definitely unimaginative. That same prompt fed into the more sophisticated version produced a boy on a spirited horse with a rather Romantic background. It was the AI itself that made the choices necessary to get from the simple prompt to the completed image.

Jumping over to our own common enterprise, I picture someone saying "write a detective story set in a fantasy world" and getting back a completed ... well, short story at first, but novellas and novels eventually. The author's only task then would be to decide whether the story was worth publishing. Slush pile indeed!

 

[pmmg]

Jumping over to our own common enterprise, I picture someone saying "write a detective story set in a fantasy world" and getting back a completed ... well, short story at first, but novellas and novels eventually. The author's only task then would be to decide whether the story was worth publishing. Slush pile indeed!

Where have you been?

 

[skip.knox]

What I want to see is the ability to take an AI engine, maybe one tuned to specific themes and material, then have the ability to feed in my own raw material--stuff I've already written, maybe piles of notes and ideas, along with images I've collected--you know, all the detritus and bright-shinies we all collect over time--and have that add my own particular tone to whatever results come out from a prompt. It strikes me that this might be a more fruitful form of brainstorming.

As for writing, well I actually like that. Were I a painter, I wouldn't care if AI could produce brilliant images; I'd still like the process of mixing the paints, wielding the brush, and so on.

But, perhaps contrarily, I spent many happy hours creating songs out of loops and samples with minimal to no actual playing of instruments on my part. So, looked at from one perspective, that was not "making music" because that wasn't me on drums or bass or whatever. Looked at from another perspective, it was me doing the composing, and was certainly more "original art" than what an AI might produce.

We live in interesting times.

 

[skip.knox]

Where have you been?

I've been everywhere, as the song says. Not sure how my travels enter into it.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I think AI can definitely be useful in this kind of manner, and not just for RPG's. Writing is an inherently lonely activity. While you can come here to ask for advice or to bounce ideas off people, or you can do so with a writing group, it's hard to do that with each little thing you run in to. And then it's great that you can have a program you can throw an idea at and it will spit out an answer.

Is Zephyria perfect? No, of course not. But it can be used as a jumping off point, where you take a few of the elements it gave and build on that. You could even just keep the name (or names) and get rid of everything else. Or you could take the different elements and expand on them.

Using it can get you out of the echo chamber of your own mind. It can give you new ideas or directions in which to take your worldbuilding or story. And doing so can make you more creative and expand your world and writing. It can give you both more original and more authentic names. It can give you ideas for cities or wildlife or anything else.

Do I think it can write a story for you. No. At least not a good one. It's a glorified auto-complete. It's great for the sort of worldbuilding Devor showed. But it's pretty bland and random if you try to get it to generate a 100k word story.

 

[pmmg]

Do I think it can write a story for you. No. At least not a good one. It's a glorified auto-complete. It's great for the sort of worldbuilding @Devor showed. But it's pretty bland and random if you try to get it to generate a 100k word story.

Another look at where ai is, and not where its going.

 

[Devor]

But it's pretty bland and random if you try to get it to generate a 100k word story.

So, I'm not going to make any claims as to its abilities. But, people who advocate for using AI talk about using prompts to generate small chunks at a time, with lengthy and carefully guided prompts. You wouldn't give it a two sentence prompt and ask for 100k words. It's more like you'd give it a 500 word prompt and look at 2,000 words, which you'd have to edit, then adjust the prompt for the next 2,000 words.

Again, I'm not trying to make claims as to its quality. The people who use it this way effectively are usually writing nonfiction and blog posts, stuff which doesn't call for a lot of creativity. And even then, I'm doubtful of its quality.

It's just that I think a lot of people still haven't gotten a feel for how to use it. That is, you're supposed to put a lot of thought and consideration into the prompt you give it and how you guide the output.

Weak prompts = weak results.

If you're judging its abilities based on weak prompts, then you're missing the mark.