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What I'm Saying Is, The Search For Equality Is Pretty Messy

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I guess what you're saying is that including certain elements in your story may distract from the story you want to tell,

Yes. Correct.

However, for me, just because I put non-white or female characters in my story, doesn't mean I'm going to focus on elements of racism or sexism. For me, my world resembles a close approximation of a Pangea sort of continent, where people of all different races live in close proximity. So instead of having all the whites in one place and all the Asians in another place, my world is "smaller" so to speak. That's why I chose to have more diverse characters, because for my story it makes sense. However, if I want to explore sexism because my main character is female and in a position of power, then it leaves that door open. So for me, I want more diverse characters so I can explore new and different ways of presenting characters. I don't believe in shoehorning characters in just to do so and I'm not sure many in this thread are advocating that.

Great. Good for you.

What I get is from others in this tread is that they think:

1. It's a good idea to insert diverse characters into your story just to have a diverse cast.

I'm not convinced that diversity for diversity's sake is a good thing.

2. There's no harm in inserting diverse characters.

I again disagree. I believe that my writing is made stronger by making it tighter. Introducing random elements for non-story reasons, I believe, weakens my writing.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I again disagree. I believe that my writing is made stronger by making it tighter. Introducing random elements for non-story reasons, I believe, weakens my writing.

So if you wrote the exact same story, word for word, except that in one of them you also mentioned that a character was black, it is weaker writing?

I find it hard to believe that any person could think that. Are you seriously trying to tell me that your answer to the above question is "yes?"
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
What's your "story purpose" for making them white?

I'm sorry, but that line of reasoning makes no sense. Of course it is a rationalization. You have the idea somehow entrenched in your mind that "white" is the default, neutral. It doesn't require a story reason, but if the same character were black it would require a story reason. You're telling me you can't see the problem with that logic?

Again, what's your "story purpose" for any given character being white?

I said that there is a valid reason for keeping the characters homogenous unless there is a valid reason for adding an outside culture, not for keeping them white.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
I again disagree. I believe that my writing is made stronger by making it tighter. Introducing random elements for non-story reasons, I believe, weakens my writing.

I think I get where you're coming from here.
If you have one of your characters be homosexual you would have to communicate that to the reader in some way and you would (or feel you would) have to pay at least some attention to it at some point. By skipping out on having a homosexual character you can bypass the entire issue of sexuality and get on with the story. Is that about correct?
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I believe diversity will support believability. Having a world where the diversity is done right will give the story more depth, making it more believable and supporting increased immersion.

How? The reader only need see the part of the world where the story takes place.

If I focused my story around a single guy who is trapped in a cave, is the world less real because there aren't characters of other races?
 

Nihal

Vala
1. For my writing, I believe it's important that each element included in the story should have a story purpose. Don't insert a shotgun if you don't plan to use it. If there's no story reason for a character to be black or gay, I don't have them be black or gay.

If I consider you've done your worldbuilding and somewhere in your world you have different ethnicities, gender orientations and women who have more reason to live than "being a woman" I can only see one reason to require a reason to make a character black or gay in a story: A person by default is a straight white male.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
You mentioned why should you as a writer care about this:

I also highlighted that readers may be more interested in more diverse casts and worlds as time goes on. That's how it can effect you as a writer. You asked why you should care about diversity, and that's one concrete reason. If readers get tired of the same type of stories being told, they're going to look at fantasy based in modern day Africa or in ancient China for their fix. This is one reason I find that YA and urban fantasy are doing some of the most daring, different things in the genre at the moment. It's because they're not constraining themselves to the default. Just because for them it isn't the same kind of characters they've already read about numerous times before.

I don't think it's necessary to twist someone's arm to get them to put certain kinds of characters in their stories. Readers are always going to be the ultimate judges though. If what people say is true and fantasy readers want more diversity, then they'll vote with their pocketbooks.
 
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BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
The better question is, why is homogeneity important to you?

It's not.

I'm reading others in this thread as saying, "diversity is better." I'm saying:

1. I'm not convinced that's the case.
2. Diversity adds to the amount of work you have to do in world building and creates more opportunities for mistakes.
3. Diversity for diversity's sake is counter to the principle of tight writing, and I feel that tight writing makes my story better.

Diversity in fiction reflects reality.

I'm not creating a real world. I'm creating a fantasy world.

The only reason for a separate race to exist in a created world is for a story reason. That's my whole point.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
So if you wrote the exact same story, word for word, except that in one of them you also mentioned that a character was black, it is weaker writing?

I find it hard to believe that any person could think that. Are you seriously trying to tell me that your answer to the above question is "yes?"

Absolutely not.

I never said that. I don't even know how you got that from what I wrote.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Absolutely not.

I never said that. I don't even know how you got that from what I wrote.

You said multiple times that having a diverse cast makes the writing weaker. My point back to you was that this is not true. I'm glad we agree on that much, at least.

So the 'weaker writing' argument is out. What's left?
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I also highlighted that readers may be more interested in more diverse casts and worlds as time goes on. That's how it can effect you as a writer. You asked why you should care about diversity, and that's one concrete reason.

I'm not sure that the market is searching for more diverse casts. Beyond this community, which on the whole seems a bit progressive, is there evidence for this? I'm not seeing a huge shift in the epic fantasy that I read.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
I believe that my writing is made stronger by making it tighter. Introducing random elements for non-story reasons, I believe, weakens my writing.
I wanted to throw in my next two cents on this turn of the thread, but first I need to ask you a question.

Are you talking strictly about your own preferred writing style here?
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
How? The reader only need see the part of the world where the story takes place.

If I focused my story around a single guy who is trapped in a cave, is the world less real because there aren't characters of other races?

That's why I added the comment about exceptions and the "done right" part.
I believe that diversity can be used to create contrast and that contrast adds depth, which in turn supports immersion.

In your story about your guy in the cave there may be a spot where some light sips in from the world outside. He can't get out from there, but seeing the light comforts him and makes him feel good. He keeps coming back to that spot inbetween searching for different ways out.
In this case, the spot of light is the contrast to everything else - it's a diversity of setting. That said, it also has a story purpose (the way I see it).

You could also tell the reader about how the cave is full of incredibly beautiful and detailed paintings on the walls from an old extinct culture. However, the cave is dark and the trapped dude doesn't see them. That's still some diversity, but it has no purpose and no point.


Edit:
I realized this derails from the diversity of race, sex and personal preference. I'm mainly commenting on the idea of diversity contributing to depth.

Depth of world is about as important to me as tightness of writing is to Brian. :)
 
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BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
You said multiple times that having a diverse cast makes the writing weaker. My point back to you was that this is not true. I'm glad we agree on that much, at least.

So the 'weaker writing' argument is out. What's left?

I think you misunderstood part of the discussion, or maybe I did.

My understanding, from my conversation with Feo, was that he advocated adding "diversity" of characters. That if you tend to have only straight, white males, you should add other ethnicities and orientations and sexes.

I took that to mean the reverse is true as well: if you wrote about only gay black women, you should add other ethnicities orientations and sexes.

I say, if your story is about gay black women, you should only add a straight white guy if there is a story need for a straight white guy.
 

Nihal

Vala
I still don't get why a character needs a reason to be of a different color, gender or orientation, as if people didn't came in all sizes and flavours but were straight white males by default; or as if you do that your book will automatically discuss racism, sexism, etc.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
I'm not sure that the market is searching for more diverse casts. Beyond this community, which on the whole seems a bit progressive, is there evidence for this? I'm not seeing a huge shift in the epic fantasy that I read.

Here's some evidence here. If Tor, the biggest purveyor of fantasy fiction in the world is mentioning this, then it may be worth noting.

Diversity in SFF | Tor.com

It's worth noting some up and coming authors, as well as some established ones have chimed in on this topic. So it's not something limited to Mythic Scribes or Tumblr or Twitter. It's a pretty huge topic in the genre right now. Has it cropped up before? Apparently, but just because a topic comes and goes and not much is done about it, doesn't mean it's not something that's going to get swept under the rug.

Tor.com (an off-shoot of Tor) specifically has changed their guidelines to this:

“We want our stories to represent the full diversity of speculative fiction, and encourage submissions by writers from underrepresented populations. This includes but is not limited to writers of any race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, nationality, class and ability, as well as characters and settings that reflect these experiences.”

What does this mean for the current fiction out there? Maybe not much. But for fantasy fiction in the next decade or so? We may see a very drastic shift.
 
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Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I say, if your story is about gay black women, you should only add a straight white guy if there is a story need for a straight white guy.

I wouldn't say that is necessarily true. There's no reason not to have one if you want to include one. Gay people have straight friends, that's just reality. So just because your story is about gay people doesn't mean you need a special reason to add straight people.

But the truth is, most fantasy stories aren't "about" sexuality, race, etc. This gets back to your conception that straight and white is the default. That's what you have, in your mind, for a fantasy story, and you only have blacks, or gay people, or whatever if the story is "about" blacks or gay people.

The point, instead, should be that your typical fantasy story that isn't about race or sexuality at all can easily include a diverse cast without detracting one bit from the story or the tightness of the writing. You don't need a reason to include a black character, for example, any more than you need a reason to include a white one.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I wanted to throw in my next two cents on this turn of the thread, but first I need to ask you a question.

Are you talking strictly about your own preferred writing style here?

Jabrosky,

As with most people on this forum, I am far from mastering the art of writing. The more I learn, the more I come to understand what makes scenes work for me. I can't really tell you how universal these traits are.

Take tension. I think you can drive a scene without tension, but it seems a lot more difficult to do so.

Here's what I've figured out as an "easy" path to making my writing good enough (hopefully) to entertain my readers:

1. Clarity.
2. Tension.
3. Deep POV.
4. Tight writing and focus.

If you have found a different path, good for you. In fact, what I've learned is that a scene that incorporates all four elements is better than one that has only one, two, or three. If there are other drivers of good writing that I'm not considering, I'd love to know what they are and how to include them in my writing.

Hope that clarifies matters.

Brian
 
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