Why Women Warriors are Scantily Clothed

[Tom]

When Aragorn marches helmless on the black gate, nobody cares. When Nightwing, Green Arrow, Conan, Rambo and more fight with vital parts exposed nobody cares. These characters are no more or less practical than the sexualized female ones. The difference is that their impracticality is used to convey more than sex appeal, they typically communicate strength and authority. The sexualized portrayal is not in itself a problem, the imbalance is. But that reflects the standards in all of western culture.

In Aragorn's case it's not a show of power but instead an old and very common filmmakers' trick. Helmets obscure the face and make it hard to read the expression, which is essential to a character's connection to the audience in a highly visual media like film. So the character either goes into battle helmet-free or loses it sometime during the fight, usually before a key moment involving a lot of emotion. An example of this would be Eowyn removing her helmet before killing the Witch-King--this not only reveals her gender, but also clears our view of her face so we can see her expression when she kills him.

The rest of these are male power fantasies. They're meant to serve as a self-insert for the men watching them. There's a big difference between a male character created by a man for other men to see themselves as, and a female character created by a man for other men to see as a sexual object.

 

[Chessie2]

This same question is what I ask myself when I see waxed man chests all over the place. Not my preference and it makes me laugh, same way the Forsworn females in Skyrim made me laugh. WHY?! Because other people like it and it sells. Shrugs.

The first time I laid eyes on a female Forsworn I laughed so hard along with Marcurio's comment, "They don't even have the decency to dress right." I know! Here, let me shove my sword into that bare middle you're showing me.

 

[Heliotrope]

The rest of these are male power fantasies. They're meant to serve as a self-insert for the men watching them. There's a big difference between a male character created by a man for other men to see themselves as, and a female character created by a man for other men to see as a sexual object.

So much this. This nails it.

 

[pmmg]

The rest of these are male power fantasies.

I think if you study this more, you will find these also slide into depictions of female power fantasies. But they are all fantasies. Superman, with all of his muscles rippling through his spandex is every bit as much a fantasy as wonder woman and her not exactly all covering armor. Neither one of them is real. They both exist in a world of lets just pretend this could really work out. They are just trying to sell comic books, and eye candy is a part of it. More power to them.

If I was to move over to the anime world, I see plenty of equally objectified women, and many of the males are either androgynous or effeminate. They have an audience too, and its not really the same one as Marvel and DC.

You know, I think we can all live in a world where some stories put the helmets on, and some stories call Red Sonja just too bad ass to beat. Sometimes, liberties are taken, and it works out better that way.

And yes, I think we are all aware that not having helmets, or piecemeal armor really would not cut it for wannabe heroes jumping into battles. And battles were not really about individuals killing all foes and emerging victories amid the smoking ruin of fallen comrades, but a bunch of somebodies with team or individual colors on pounding it out for one side or another. But I'm not writing about them. It may not be real, but I can still believe in Wonder Woman, and Batgirl, even Hawkeye too (well not Hawkeye, who would bring a bow to a gun fight?).

I say keep going Red, your uterus is more powerful than anything I've written, and an awesome uterus it is.

 

[Tom]

I think if you study this more, you will find these also slide into depictions of female power fantasies. But they are all fantasies. Superman, with all of his muscles rippling through his spandex is every bit as much a fantasy as wonder woman and her not exactly all covering armor. Neither one of them is real. They both exist in a world of lets just pretend this could really work out. They are just trying to sell comic books, and eye candy is a part of it. More power to them.

This isn't taking into account the fact that Wonder Woman was originally concieved as a bondage fantasy by a male creator. That's very much a character intended to be a sex object. Over the years she's evolved into her own complex character, but that doesn't change her creator's original intent.

Yes, female power fantasies can be sexual, and yes, eye candy is not always bad. But I think it should be remembered when discussing this stuff that a lot of the media we consume is/was made by male creators for what was until recently a majority male audience.

 

[Heliotrope]

I think if you study this more, you will find these also slide into depictions of female power fantasies. But they are all fantasies. Superman, with all of his muscles rippling through his spandex is every bit as much a fantasy as wonder woman and her not exactly all covering armor. Neither one of them is real. They both exist in a world of lets just pretend this could really work out. They are just trying to sell comic books, and eye candy is a part of it. More power to them.

If I was to move over to the anime world, I see plenty of equally objectified women, and many of the males are either androgynous or effeminate. They have an audience too, and its not really the same one as Marvel and DC.

You know, I think we can all live in a world where some stories put the helmets on, and some stories call Red Sonja just too bad ass to beat. Sometimes, liberties are taken, and it works out better that way.

And yes, I think we are all aware that not having helmets, or piecemeal armor really would not cut it for wannabe heroes jumping into battles. And battles were not really about individuals killing all foes and emerging victories amid the smoking ruin of fallen comrades, but a bunch of somebodies with team or individual colors on pounding it out for one side or another. But I'm not writing about them. It may not be real, but I can still believe in Wonder Woman, and Batgirl, even Hawkeye too (well not Hawkeye, who would bring a bow to a gun fight?).

I say keep going Red, your uterus is more powerful than anything I've written, and an awesome uterus it is.

It’s true, and I’m not suggesting that all women in fantasy comics or fiction need to be rewritten. I can admit that for myself of course sometimes I want to put myself in the female power fantasy that I’m badass, but also smoking hot. Look at me defeat these barbarians while still having sexy tousled hair and a cute butt. Love me

My original intention of posting the Hawkeye theory stuff what to say “if you don’t think the point of comics is to sell sex, then perhaos give your head a bit of a shake.” It is basically a child’s first access to legal pornography.

 

[Russ]

I also think the nature of the audience is important to any discussion of this subject. What adults get from a comic book or magazine is one thing.

But we do need to at least think and talk about what comics and depicting women in certain ways is teaching to the young women and men of our society. Is it healthy? Is good for them as individuals or for us as a society? Is that really all we have to offer for young women to be fictional role models?

(As an aside I started reading the original Heavy Metal magazine way too young. Now that was some seriously misogynistic and unhealthy stuff.)

 

[Heliotrope]

(As an aside I started reading the original Heavy Metal magazine way too young. Now that was some seriously misogynistic and unhealthy stuff.)

My dad struggled to let me read Archie because he hated that all Betty and Veronica cared about was getting Archie. He didn't want me to think that getting a boy was all I needed in life.

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

When Aragorn marches helmless on the black gate, nobody cares. When Nightwing, Green Arrow, Conan, Rambo and more fight with vital parts exposed nobody cares.

My wife makes fun of these portrayals all the time, so much that I can't enjoy watching them if she's in the room. I'm willing to ignore it for the sake of watching a movie. But both of us laugh when a dozen guys with automatic rifles come on the screen and can't hit a person running across a yard with no cover. The other thing we laugh about is when a person falls dead, and there's someone standing right behind them, only revealed when the dead person falls. Where the hell did they come from? They just pop into existence, without a sound, no matter how heavily clad they are.

It is more of a problem typically in the visual medium. In the printed medium, you as the reader can at least imagine a reason behind how these fantastical events might somewhat realistically occur. When they put it on the screen and remove any possible explanation for how it might happen, it becomes laughable.

 

[Heliotrope]

Or how cool guys never look at explosions and don't bat an eye about all the dead people they just created?

 

[Tom]

But both of us laugh when a dozen guys with automatic rifles come on the screen and can't hit a person running across a yard with no cover.

There's a scene exactly like this in Captain America: Winter Soldier and I laugh so hard every time. He's running with his shield covering his upper body but NO ONE thought to shoot his legs, apparently!

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Give yourself twenty years and two babies. You'll wish you could bronze it and put in on your mantle.

Well, that'd make for an interesting conversation piece.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

There's a scene exactly like this in Captain America: Winter Soldier and I laugh so hard every time. He's running with his shield covering his upper body but NO ONE thought to shoot his legs, apparently!

There's an identical scene in Wonder Woman, but that scene was so cool that i kinda ignore it

 

[ThinkerX]

Or how cool guys never look at explosions and don't bat an eye about all the dead people they just created?

...not bat an eye at the dead people they just created...

I wrestled with that for quite a while. Get right down to it, the words for that type of guy is 'stone cold killer.' Stems back to a conversation from my AD&D days, about Kobolds and experience points (EP's). EP wise, Kobolds are not worth much - maybe five each. It normally takes thousands of EP's to advance in level. Buddy of mine runs though the numbers and goes, 'man, you'd have to kill like an entire tribe just to make 3rd.' My thoughts turned to the psychological effects of that much mayhem. A person with that many deaths weighing on him, I decided, would be either an amoral killer or a psychological wreck. That became one of the dominant themes in my writing: characters who have stared into the abyss, survived, and now have to cope with the aftermath.

(apologies for the derailment)

 

[pmmg]

This isn't taking into account the fact that Wonder Woman was originally conceived as a bondage fantasy by a male creator.

Well, I thought it did, but you are free to think otherwise.

Look at me defeat these barbarians while still having sexy tousled hair and a cute butt. Love me

Of Course, Helio, what's not to love about you?

“if you don’t think the point of comics is to sell sex, then perhaps give your head a bit of a shake.” It is basically a child’s first access to legal pornography.

Have you seen the internet recently?

Actually, I don't think comics are out to sell sex, they are out to sell comics. That they provide what could be considered a soft anatomy lesson in some (many) panels does not hurt with that, I am sure. But they are also selling a lot more than that. Stories about heroes, doing what's right, wrestling with grey issues, trying to show many other aspects of character relationships…I could go on. Comics are just the modern versions of old world mythologies, and they serve, at times, to teach the same types of life lessons.

I also think the nature of the audience is important to any discussion of this subject. What adults get from a comic book or magazine is one thing.

I can't argue with that. Heck, there were many things I was exposed to as a child that just did not register, and when I saw it again as an adult, I was like, Wow, I had no idea there was so much of this lewd stuff going on. Guess I was just naive and my brain then did not see it. As an adult, I watched many things that had innuendo and references that I know my kids did not grasp, but I was able to appreciate. If only I could go back and do it all over again.

(As an aside I started reading the original Heavy Metal magazine way too young. Now that was some seriously misogynistic and unhealthy stuff.)

I did not have a lot of exposure to Heavy Metal, I saw some issues of it. It was certainly more free with depicting more graphic material, and it may have been unhealthy in many regards, but I am not sure I would have called it misogynistic. That word gets thrown around a lot, I am not sure it always really applies.

But we do need to at least think and talk about what comics and depicting women in certain ways is teaching to the young women and men of our society. Is it healthy? Is good for them as individuals or for us as a society? Is that really all we have to offer for young women to be fictional role models?

Well, here we are.

There are many things I don’t like in our culture, and sometimes, Marvel and DC rise to that level, but I find most of Marvel and DC's stuff harmless. Skimpy outfits and idealized iconic specimens, I am sure we are all resilient enough to survive a media outlet or two that relies heavily on them. To say that they would be 'all' we have to offer is just not correct. It is just a part the whole, and the experiences of any contain so many myriad of things that help to shape them, that there will never be just one that could a representative of all. I was more influenced by Adam West and Luke Skywalker than anything I've ever read in a comic. And by the time I was aware that 'Wow, these women have shapely bits I might like to see more of, Playboy was already a thing".

We may, through some great effort, convince Marvel or DC to put more clothes on that, but outlets for this will always exist, and probably always have. Sex sells, but you know what, people like sex. And people like sex in many different forms. I don’t see that ever changing.

Women are not made less powerful because of what Wonder Woman is wearing today, or how someone chose to pose her. Their power is inherent in their very being. There to be asserted or diminished as they find best to use it. But it can never be taken away. The female will always be a powerful equal to the male. Just not with the same tools.

 

[pmmg]

There's an identical scene in Wonder Woman, but that scene was so cool that i kinda ignore it

More recent depictions of wonder woman, and certainly the move version, have her as being impervious to bullets, so she really did not need the shield. Capt America...well, there are a lot of things Super heroes do that make me think that would not be likely, but...

http://i.imgur.com/2oWwPZV.jpg

 

[Dark Squiggle]

Or how cool guys never look at explosions and don't bat an eye about all the dead people they just created?

If they look back they'll turn into pillars of salt, or their lover they're saving from Hell will be forced to go back. How could you possibly infer that they should look back?