Women in Fantasy

[Amanita]

What makes a strong woman other than physical strength? Well, I definitely can't give a "right" answer to this, only my personal opinion.
For me, these are women who are self-confident, have skills beyond looking pretty and getting men to take care of them. Those women believe that these skills are valuable and they aren't completely dependent on others (especially men) to determine their self-worth.
They do not only care about getting the love of one special man (or woman too, if love stories involving lesbians do this too.) If in a story they do fall in love with a male protagonist, they have lifes, hopes and wishes unrelated to this love as well.
Male characters almost never dedicate their entire being to "love" and if they do, it usually is described as unhealthy. Not so for females.
I especially can't stand the idea that "men care about doing things and women care about men." That might be one of the reasons, why I hardly ever like romance novels.

 

[Lapis Nebula]

I think a strong lead, regardless of male or female, definitely needs to have a few non-negotiable traits:

1 - independence and self-reliance
2 - some skill - be it cognitive, physical, or magical - that sets them apart from others
3 - compassionate drive and motivation. They have to have something that is driving them, and compassion or care for others has to be in there somewhere.

I think generally for female leads, independence is downplayed and compassion is exaggerated, often to the point of compassion being a hindrance instead of a boon. Male leads frequently don't have enough of the compassion element, in my opinion, to be totally likable.

I completely agree with you, Amanita, that caring only about getting the love of that special someone isn't the mark of a strong lead character. But I think it can be worked into the storyline and used well, as long as there is more to the character than JUST the love of that one other person

-Lapis

 

[Amanita]

But I think it can be worked into the storyline and used well, as long as there is more to the character than JUST the love of that one other person

Definitly. But there are too many books out there at the moment, which are only about the main character getting the love of her vampire, werewolf/"mysterious" male of choice. Characters who have no motivation and no goals in life beyond their love interest annoy me deeply, at least, if this is portrayed as a good thing. Snape's reason for "redemption" in HP 7 was a male example of this.
I'm not sure about the compassion bit. Depending on the story, the character might be better of and more believable if he or she doesn't have too much of it.

 

[Lapis Nebula]

Definitly. But there are too many books out there at the moment, which are only about the main character getting the love of her vampire, werewolf/"mysterious" male of choice.

Amen. I'm sure we've all heard the, "Harry Potter teaches the importance of courage and friendship. Twilight teaches the importance of having a boyfriend" quote, yes?

Depending on the story, the character might be better of and more believable if he or she doesn't have too much of it.

Sure, but I think there has to be some of it, for something. It doesn't have to be for some ONE, necessarily, but there has to be something the character cares about in order to provide the motivation for whatever they are doing, right?

 

[Wormtongue]

In my medieval-ish society the gender roles are practical for a people of that era. The men tend more toward physical labor and fighting, while the women tend more to traditional female roles.

One of my four main characters happens to be a female mage. She is strong and capable but lacks confidence. This comes from her background as well as a certain discomfort with her non-traditional role. I don't see this as stereotyping at all. I can assure she will never trip and fall while running from the antagonist. She's not the type to run.

 

[ascanius]

What makes a strong woman other than physical strength? Well, I definitely can't give a "right" answer to this, only my personal opinion.
For me, these are women who are self-confident, have skills beyond looking pretty and getting men to take care of them. Those women believe that these skills are valuable and they aren't completely dependent on others (especially men) to determine their self-worth.
They do not only care about getting the love of one special man (or woman too, if love stories involving lesbians do this too.) If in a story they do fall in love with a male protagonist, they have lifes, hopes and wishes unrelated to this love as well.
Male characters almost never dedicate their entire being to "love" and if they do, it usually is described as unhealthy. Not so for females.
I especially can't stand the idea that "men care about doing things and women care about men." That might be one of the reasons, why I hardly ever like romance novels.

Do you mean that the love thing should not be the main goal of the character? In my story I have three plots for each character, the main overarching plot that involves the entire world, the internal conflict/character plot, and the Impact/love plot. So far my characters all have plots that are separate from the love plot. But to sum it up a character who has self value.
On another point though can I ask why having the main goal being to obtain love as being the trait of a weak character? I mean couldn't you have a strong female character whose goal is to find love. I understand what you mean to some extant, like having a character whose entire existence revolves around men as being weak, like in high school. But what about the strong woman who is seeking love? Why does that make her weak.

I think a strong lead, regardless of male or female, definitely needs to have a few non-negotiable traits:

1 - independence and self-reliance
2 - some skill - be it cognitive, physical, or magical - that sets them apart from others
3 - compassionate drive and motivation. They have to have something that is driving them, and compassion or care for others has to be in there somewhere.

I can see the value of the first two but the third I don't know about. One of my MC's has absolutely no compassion, and is forced into a situation that he has no motivation to achieve, though these both change as the story progresses. Or do you mean that the plot should not be a series of character reactions to events?

I think generally for female leads, independence is downplayed and compassion is exaggerated, often to the point of compassion being a hindrance instead of a boon. Male leads frequently don't have enough of the compassion element, in my opinion, to be totally likable.

Umm. I would say that that parallels the behavior of men and women in reality though. I had a conversation about something similar a while back with some friends. The girls in the groups said that tragic events in the news, or to some one they knew had an emotional impact on them, sadness crying etc. The guys in the group all said the opposite that unless it was someone they personal knew well they didn't have any response to it, even if it was someone they knew, acquaintances. And I have to agree with them. I'm don't see the point in emotional response to something I have no personal emotional investment in. There are to many bad things happening for me to take the time and grieve for each case. The girls said that they would project themselves in those situations getting the emotional response. Based on this I don't know if compassion is necessary downplayed/overdone, though I have not read the same books you have.

I completely agree with you, Amanita, that caring only about getting the love of that special someone isn't the mark of a strong lead character. But I think it can be worked into the storyline and used well, as long as there is more to the character than JUST the love of that one other person -Lapis

So I need to stay away from the heroin's main goal being the attainment of X's love. OK It's nice to know that I am on the right track. Thank you.

 

[Ghost]

I wanted to post a response to this thread for a while, but I'm at a loss for a point to make.

in real life, what most of us must do in most of those situations is suck it up and deal.

I don't relate to feeling subjugated, but I wish there were more novels featuring women who "deal with it" without becoming flat characters. I think it requires more nuance and deeper characterization to pull off well. I'd like to imagine the effort is what scares fantasy writers away, but I don't think this is something many fantasy writers take into consideration in the first place. So many fantasies are stuck in the pseudo-medieval Western setting. I say go with it and show people being sexist without demonizing them*, or work out how women's rights could've come about in that particular setting.

Or change the setting.

Die anyone here ever give these matters any thought?

I think about it, but I'm still figuring out which parts are natural progression and which parts are cultural. I suppose that means more research. In AG, I have societies that have different gender dynamics from each other. It doesn't make sense to have one accepted way of living across the whole globe. That means there are places where women are treated like property of their fathers and husbands, but there are also places where a woman can be armed if she can afford the weapons. I don't have a church blaming women for everything that's gone wrong since Adam and Eve, so I have to work out what that means for AG.

I like to see people play with the social relations between men and women, but I hate when all women are this or all men are that. I don't want to read about women who say "woolhead" or "be nice!" all the time. I don't want to read about societies where the power is reversed, making men the victims of discrimination, yet the author attacks any male character who questions the system because the system is sacred. That's still sexism. I'll read books with a mostly male cast, but I will notice the lack of female characters in a nonmilitary setting. It makes me wonder what's going on there.

Then there's this idea of beautiful damsels-in-distress who are soft and demure but otherwise lacking in the personality department. They want whatever the men in their lives want. Even when most women go along with what society wants and want those things themselves, there are women who don't want those things. They learn how to hide their true feelings. Other women fight the system (but not alone!), but I suspect the activists are outnumbered by women who manipulate the system, at least in the beginning. I'd like to see more women with the guts to get what they want and the smarts to stay under the radar.

ETA: I never thought of "strong character" as a physically strong character. It's funny how words bring up different images for different people. I take it to mean someone who is principled or confident in herself. She can doubt herself, but she doesn't give in to others when her values are at stake. The path she chooses isn't the easiest one open to her, but it's the one she thinks is right. Other people have different ideas of what makes a strong character. It's all good.

* Seriously, why make a society one way just to smack them on the head with how wrong that way is? Also, villains and ignorant villagers are unlikely to be the only sexist people on the entire planet.

 

[Taytortots]

My lead character is a women. She is a strong female lead, and she does fight and swing a sword. She also does magic, and a lot more than that as well. Despite these characteristics I find that my character is very different from many of those that I've read in other novels.
I also find myself with very diverse characters. I do have a women that, for all intensive purposes, is a typical working women. Strong, but not in the sword swinging way. I personally think it's important to add diversity in the people. There are no two people the same, afterall.
Just something to add that is my opinion. When I look at creating my chracters, I never look really at their gender. I'm creating a girl, but she's not only a girl, she's a million other things. Being a women does not define her, her behaviours, thoughts emotions and etc do. I do agree that we do need more refressing main characters, specifically female because they tend to be more steriotipacal.