Women in fantasy

[Mindfire]

DC has Wonder Woman, but they've been doing their best to drive away all female readers of comics as of late. I guess it wouldn't be bad if women that were in teams got their own movie franchises. It worked for Wolverine (although he's always been a bit of a loner).

Wonder Woman as a character, despite how popular and recognizable she is, has legit problems that make her hard to adapt. For one thing, she doesn't have a solidified identity like Batman and Superman do. There is no real Wonder Woman canon, no impressive villains, even her backstory is muddled and changed every ten years. Who's her archenemy? Cheetah? Ares? Hades? No one seems to know. Is she a demigod? A homunculus given life and power by the Greek Gods? A super-spy? A diplomat? Depends on the decade. The facade of the character is an American icon. But behind that? There is no "definitive" take on Wonder Woman. The character has been so badly handled since her inception that she has no real core. Superman is all about hope and inspiration. Batman is all about justice and vengeance. What is Wonder Woman about? Despite her being part of DC's trinity along with the other two characters, nobody seems to know. Well, actually I take that back. DC/WB's animation department seems to know. In animation, Wonder Woman has been handled very well. But outside of that, nobody has a clue. And that saddens me because Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are the Kirk, Spock, and McCoy of superheroes. Superman and Batman may get a duo movie if Man of Steel does well, but we'll never see the whole trio until someone figures out how to do Wonder Woman right. Here's a start: cast Liv Tyler.

 

[saellys]

Black Widow was present. And she was pretty cool.

Less superhero (per Joss's complaint), more total BAMF. Zero Angel mentioned she didn't have the super-soldier background this time and is, as far as we all know, just really great at her job. Not trying to split hairs or anything, but Joss says there aren't enough female superheros after making a superhero movie where eighty percent of the main cast was male. Even Agent Hill felt like an afterthought.

If he really wants to do something about the problem, he could start by adapting Runaways, a series in which he's already invested.

 

[Mindfire]

Less superhero (per Joss's complaint), more total BAMF. Zero Angel mentioned she didn't have the super-soldier background this time and is, as far as we all know, just really great at her job. Not trying to split hairs or anything, but Joss says there aren't enough female superheros after making a superhero movie where eighty percent of the main cast was male. Even Agent Hill felt like an afterthought.

If he really wants to do something about the problem, he could start by adapting Runaways, a series in which he's already invested.

Well, the Avengers were mostly male by necessity. Are you really going to cut out Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk, or Thor for Wasp or Miss Marvel? The only one I think they could have switched out was Hawkeye, since he didn't do much anyway. But then you'd have the fans crying bloody murder. And I wouldn't consider Agent Hill a part of the main cast. I'd call her a side character. And screen time was stretched thin as it was, so I think they can be forgiven for not giving her more of it.

 

[saellys]

Not suggesting switching anyone out (and sure as hell not Thor), and I know Joss was in somewhat a bind considering how much was already established that needed to go into the film. He did have an astonishing amount of creative control, though; he got to pick the villain, among many other details. Bet he could have figured something out.

I see him pay lip service to this issue in interviews all the time, and when it regards something as specific as superhero movies, one of which he wrote and directed, and he apparently thinks it's sad that his kid could only point to two female characters, but not sad enough to have inserted more female characters, it comes off a bit feeble.

Also, restricting my statistics to just the actual Avengers Initiative members plus Loki makes the main cast 85% male.

 

[Mindfire]

Well, rumor is the guy who wrote Man of Steel wants to do a Wonder Woman film.

 

[Feo Takahari]

Wonder Woman as a character, despite how popular and recognizable she is, has legit problems that make her hard to adapt. For one thing, she doesn't have a solidified identity like Batman and Superman do. There is no real Wonder Woman canon, no impressive villains, even her backstory is muddled and changed every ten years. Who's her archenemy? Cheetah? Ares? Hades? No one seems to know. Is she a demigod? A homunculus given life and power by the Greek Gods? A super-spy? A diplomat? Depends on the decade. The facade of the character is an American icon. But behind that? There is no "definitive" take on Wonder Woman. The character has been so badly handled since her inception that she has no real core. Superman is all about hope and inspiration. Batman is all about justice and vengeance. What is Wonder Woman about? Despite her being part of DC's trinity along with the other two characters, nobody seems to know. Well, actually I take that back. DC/WB's animation department seems to know. In animation, Wonder Woman has been handled very well. But outside of that, nobody has a clue. And that saddens me because Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are the Kirk, Spock, and McCoy of superheroes. Superman and Batman may get a duo movie if Man of Steel does well, but we'll never see the whole trio until someone figures out how to do Wonder Woman right. Here's a start: cast Liv Tyler.

Just throwing ideas out there, but she might work well as DC's darker counterpart to Thor--a walking anachronism from a time when justice and violence were closely intertwined. She may recognize that someone who pulls out a gun and robs a bank is committing a misdeed, but she might not get why it's not acceptable to kill him for it. ("He was threatening innocents with a weapon!") Mix in the whole "can block bullets" thing, and you've got someone trying to do what she thinks is the right thing, with the power to actually do it, in a society where she may be feared or even resented for her efforts.

 

[Mindfire]

Just throwing ideas out there, but she might work well as DC's darker counterpart to Thor--a walking anachronism from a time when justice and violence were closely intertwined. She may recognize that someone who pulls out a gun and robs a bank is committing a misdeed, but she might not get why it's not acceptable to kill him for it. ("He was threatening innocents with a weapon!") Mix in the whole "can block bullets" thing, and you've got someone trying to do what she thinks is the right thing, with the power to actually do it, in a society where she may be feared or even resented for her efforts.

An interesting take, but in my personal opinion, making Wonder Woman dark kinda defeats the point of the character. I agree that out of the Trinity, she's the one most likely to use lethal force, but I don't think she'd do it so cavalierly. Your suggestion seems to make her into nothing more than a woman with Superman's powers, Batman's attitude, and a willingness to kill. I think that's the wrong approach. Wonder Woman's personality needs to make her distinct from Superman and Batman while complementing them both in the same way that they complement each other. That's what makes the trinity work. It is, as I said, the Kirk-Spock-McCoy of superheroes. Simply determine who fills what role, and their interactions will write themselves.

 

[Mindfire]

As for who takes what role, there are several ways you could write it. My favorite version has Batman, cold, calculating, and pragmatic, in the "Spock" role, while Wonder Woman takes the "McCoy" role and Superman takes the "Kirk" role. This scenario makes Wonder Woman a maternal figure who cares more about the practical matter of standing up for the oppressed and disenfranchised than Batman's vengeance or Superman's idealism. Superman would then be (as he looks to be portrayed in Man of Steel) committed to the ideal of heroism and determined to help humanity but at the same time feeling detached from it. His position as the "balance" between Wonder Woman and Batman would also make him the de facto leader, which he traditionally is.

 

[Feo Takahari]

As for who takes what role, there are several ways you could write it. My favorite version has Batman, cold, calculating, and pragmatic, in the "Spock" role, while Wonder Woman takes the "McCoy" role and Superman takes the "Kirk" role. This scenario makes Wonder Woman a maternal figure who cares more about the practical matter of standing up for the oppressed and disenfranchised than Batman's vengeance or Superman's idealism. Superman would then be (as he looks to be portrayed in Man of Steel) committed to the ideal of heroism and determined to help humanity but at the same time feeling detached from it. His position as the "balance" between Wonder Woman and Batman would also make him the de facto leader, which he traditionally is.

Getting off-topic, but I think Superman works best as Clark Kent in flight (and in underwear)--that is to say, while the coolest Batmen have generally been those who think of themselves as apart from humanity despite just being very smart and well-trained humans, the coolest Supermen have generally been those who think of themselves as human despite coming from another planet.

(It says volumes that I don't have a really cool Wonder Woman to throw in here. I only really know her from the Justice League cartoons, and I never thought her portrayal there was especially deep or interesting.)

 

[Mindfire]

(It says volumes that I don't have a really cool Wonder Woman to throw in here. I only really know her from the Justice League cartoons, and I never thought her portrayal there was especially deep or interesting.)

Believe it or not, those cartoons are actually one of the best and most popular portrayals of her out there. Now what does that say? But let me see if I can come up with something. Using your words as a template:

the coolest _______ have generally been those who think of themselves as _________ despite __________.

The coolest Wonder Women have generally been those who think of themselves as advocates for peace, truth, and fairness, despite being trained warriors from a royal heritage willing to use lethal force if necessary.

Not quite as good I suppose, but it's a start? I'm curious. What do the female posters think Wonder Woman should be?

 

[Penpilot]

While we're on the topic of Wonder Woman, has anyone seen this trailer for a fan Wonder Woman movie? It's not bad at all. Wonder Woman Fan Film Trailer - YouTube

 

[A. E. Lowan]

While Live Tyler as Wonder Woman gives me all happy tingles, we ARE talking about mixing Marvel an DC, which I'm not too sure is kosher - but damn it would be cool.

That being said, wasn't there news about Joss bringing in Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver for Avengers 2?

 

[Mindfire]

While we're on the topic of Wonder Woman, has anyone seen this trailer for a fan Wonder Woman movie? It's not bad at all. Wonder Woman Fan Film Trailer - YouTube

Actually I thought it was kinda meh.

 

[Ophiucha]

Wonder Woman... yeah, I want to love her, but damn she is handled poorly by the writers and directors who make her stuff. There are a few gems in the rough, don't get me wrong, but I basically gave up on her after the 2009 film, which had a lot of 'post-feminist' messages and blatantly making Wonder Woman a strawman feminist (the writers have her overreacting to everything a man does or says while kind of just dismissing the actual acts of sexism that she witnesses or experiences). I won't get into the whole plot, but the film ends with Wonder Woman getting herself a man and them opening up the land of the Amazons to the world of men so that they might 'live as women', which is just... ugh. The only good parts of that movie was Nathan Fillion voicing the love interest and this scene:

Liv Tyler would make a good Wonder Woman, provided they actually make a film for her in the next twenty years. Though I'd personally vote for Gina Torres, if casting choices were made via election. She is basically Wonder Woman already, all she needs is the costume. (Not the one they used for the TV pilot a couple of years ago, though. That one was dreadful.)

 

[Kit]

Though I'd personally vote for Gina Torres, if casting choices were made via election. She is basically Wonder Woman already, all she needs is the costume.

Good choice. Gina has muscles. I hate it when somebody tries to sell me an anorexic movie star with biceps the diameter of plastic drinking straws as a superhero.

 

[Devor]

Not suggesting switching anyone out (and sure as hell not Thor), and I know Joss was in somewhat a bind considering how much was already established that needed to go into the film. He did have an astonishing amount of creative control, though; he got to pick the villain, among many other details. Bet he could have figured something out.

I see him pay lip service to this issue in interviews all the time, and when it regards something as specific as superhero movies, one of which he wrote and directed, and he apparently thinks it's sad that his kid could only point to two female characters, but not sad enough to have inserted more female characters, it comes off a bit feeble.

Also, restricting my statistics to just the actual Avengers Initiative members plus Loki makes the main cast 85% male.

I don't know. Avengers was full of A-list heroes, and both Wasp and Miss Marvel are B-listers. That's kind of a legacy issue. Wasp would've been especially tough because she's so tied into Ant Man. And Miss Marvel's movie rights only just came back into Marvel's possession - they've been buying them back because of how well the movie did.

But of the Marvel B-listers, I think Miss Marvel is the closest to moving up, in part because of Whedon's introduction of the SWORD space station and the way her character was featured in the Disney Avengers TV show. I honestly think a good movie could fix up her story enough to push her up - and since she's tied so heavily into space and aliens, it's almost like there's a rogues gallery waiting for a hero. Well, maybe.

 

[Mindfire]

Wonder Woman... yeah, I want to love her, but damn she is handled poorly by the writers and directors who make her stuff. There are a few gems in the rough, don't get me wrong, but I basically gave up on her after the 2009 film, which had a lot of 'post-feminist' messages and blatantly making Wonder Woman a strawman feminist (the writers have her overreacting to everything a man does or says while kind of just dismissing the actual acts of sexism that she witnesses or experiences). I won't get into the whole plot, but the film ends with Wonder Woman getting herself a man and them opening up the land of the Amazons to the world of men so that they might 'live as women', which is just... ugh. The only good parts of that movie was Nathan Fillion voicing the love interest and this scene:

Liv Tyler would make a good Wonder Woman, provided they actually make a film for her in the next twenty years. Though I'd personally vote for Gina Torres, if casting choices were made via election. She is basically Wonder Woman already, all she needs is the costume. (Not the one they used for the TV pilot a couple of years ago, though. That one was dreadful.)

For all it's worth, I liked the 2009 Wonder Woman. What exactly did you dislike about the Amazons revealing themselves to the earth? The fact that the Amazons hold themselves separate from and above "man's world" is their society's greatest flaw and is supposed to be seen as a bad thing, much like the isolationist brand of feminism I mentioned earlier. The fact that they chose to move away from that sends the message that your ideals do no good if you stay on a mountaintop somewhere and look down on everyone. You have to go out there and actively make the world a better place. This is what Wonder Woman learns by the end of the film. And she also learns not to look down on an entire demographic group just because some of them do bad things.

Also, the Amazons were unfairly restricting the lives of their sisters by forcing them to live on the island and never leave. Suppose some of them actually wanted to have families (a point the movie directly addressed)?

 

[Mindfire]

Good choice. Gina has muscles. I hate it when somebody tries to sell me an anorexic movie star with biceps the diameter of plastic drinking straws as a superhero.

Ehhh... Gina Torres looks a bit old to be Wonder Woman. Hippolyta maybe.

 

[Mindfire]

Also, it might be worth noting that the Wonder Woman film was written by Gail Simone.

 

[glutton]

Alexandra Daddario should be Wonder Woman.