Women in fantasy

[T.Allen.Smith]

Sansa is 13...but so was Dany when she was married by force and look at all the crap she had to deal with. The difference between the two is night and day. The little I did read about Sansa, it seems to me I only got a peek at her before she grows. Although in the same book, Dany exploded with self-awareness and survival power. If anyone has survived, its her. Granted, everyone matures differently but still, both girls were pampered growing up and they turned out quite differently.

Dany was never pampered. She was a refugee for as long as she could remember, always on the move to avoid Baratheon assassins. Further, she was raised by an abusive brother who considered her no more than a tool for reclamation of the crown. The only commonality of their upbringing would be they never wanted for much.

 

[saellys]

Yeah, Daenerys reacted to hardship differently from Sansa due to their wildly divergent upbringings. Comparison between them is unfair.

Furthermore, I read Daenerys's realization of autonomy and power as a breakthrough when she struck Viserys, and not before. That was the moment when she understood what she had inside her (not just Drogo's kid).

Sansa's lack of agency was a situational decision made by the author, and I believe the intent is to subvert the trope she inhabits, and gradually give her the tools she needs to save herself. Your mileage upon reading may vary, and if you don't see the arc of her growth, no one can make you see it. I'm also not going to rag on anyone too hard for missing details in such a massive series; I didn't know Loras and Renly were gay until the show!

 

[Kit]

Yeah, Daenerys reacted to hardship differently from Sansa due to their wildly divergent upbringings. Comparison between them is unfair.

Yet Sansa and Arya had the same upbringing.....

I'm also not going to rag on anyone too hard for missing details in such a massive series; I didn't know Loras and Renly were gay until the show!

It was never explicitly stated in the books, just hinted at. That made me go as well.

 

[saellys]

Yet Sansa and Arya had the same upbringing.....

But Arya largely rejected her gender role, and was in a position to escape when the proverbial poo hit the fan in King's Landing, while Sansa was not. The differences between the Stark sisters are many and clearly stated in the books.

 

[Chessie]

Dany was pampered. Being called a princess everyday and having slaves bathe you is pampering, refugee or not. I want someone to bathe and dress me! If we're talking about femininity, comparing Arya and Sansa doesn't fit since Arya rejects it. I used Dany because she still retains her female identity while rejecting the second rate place women hold in her world.

 

[saellys]

Dany was pampered. Being called a princess everyday and having slaves bathe you is pampering, refugee or not. I want someone to bathe and dress me!

She was also physically and emotionally abused throughout her childhood. Sansa got treated to a noble lady's upbringing without the constant fear of waking the dragon.

 

[Chessie]

Saellys, you're absolutely right about that....minor detail. Like I said, comparison of Sansa and Dany was more to show that, to be badass, a woman doesn't have to give up her feminine traits, like Arya. But I wasn't very clear about that.

 

[saellys]

That I totally agree with. Whatever other failings Martin has, he at least wrote quite a few power-wielding women who conform to their gender roles. And while Dany is a certifiable BAMF right now, I'm convinced Sansa will be too; her arc will just take longer to reach that point.

 

[Ophiucha]

without the constant fear of waking the dragon.

*coughs* Viserys was no dragon. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

But yes, Sansa had a relatively happy life up until the end of Book 1/Season 1, whereas Daenerys lived in constant fear of her brother. Plus, their engagements/marriages were completely unlike one another. Dany, already used to fear and some degree of servitude, took her position of power as an opportunity to free herself from her brother. Whereas Sansa was already powerful, as a Lady and second in line for heir of Winterfell, and considered herself as free as a woman could expect... only to be engaged to a man who made her life hell. Marriage broke Dany's bonds, but it gave Sansa her first pair of shackles. Both of their husbands are cruel, yet their very different backgrounds dictated how their marriages affected their lives.

Margaery sort of falls between the two, and I think is quite the interesting character herself. She sort of falls into the same general group as Cersei in terms of the roles of women, yet she is far more accepting of her status (and manipulative of it) than Cersei is, who I often feel simply wants to be a man. She's happy ruling while Joffrey is underage; she'd like to be recognized by her father as equal to her brothers (well, Jaime anyway); she has very little interest in her wifely duties or being remarried after her first husband's death. Sansa never seems to want any power, Margaery wants the power that being the Queen grants, Cersei wants the power that being the King grants. And Daenerys is sort of the one who sees nothing masculine about absolute monarchy to begin with.

 

[Penpilot]

Sansa is 13...but so was Dany when she was married by force and look at all the crap she had to deal with. The difference between the two is night and day. The little I did read about Sansa, it seems to me I only got a peek at her before she grows. Although in the same book, Dany exploded with self-awareness and survival power. If anyone has survived, its her. Granted, everyone matures differently but still, both girls were pampered growing up and they turned out quite differently. The one thing they do have in common though is manipulation of men, which seems to be a theme in ASOIF.

In terms of purely writing, if Sana rose to power much like Dany at the same age, it would be redundant. Martin shows a cross-section of different types of characters. Dany's rise is quick, Sansa's slow. If they both rose at the same time, might as well edit out one because their stories would be too similar.

Yes, but that would be a rather unusual character in the first place...

I don't know. I don't think it'd be too unusual. I remember reading a news story about a female police officers being dominated by abusive husband. I can't recall specific instances, but physical and mental abuse isn't limited to those who are physically weak. I mean there are instances where a husband is abused by a physically smaller wife. Again never assume physical strength equals mental strength or that physical weakness is mental weakness too.

 

[glutton]

I don't know. I don't think it'd be too unusual. I remember reading a news story about a female police officers being dominated by abusive husband. I can't recall specific instances, but physical and mental abuse isn't limited to those who are physically weak. I mean there are instances where a husband is abused by a physically smaller wife. Again never assume physical strength equals mental strength or that physical weakness is mental weakness too.

It would be unusual as in 'unexpected of a kick-ass female warrior character in fantasy', whether it's realistic is another matter.

 

[Mindfire]

Whereas Sansa was already powerful, as a Lady and second in line for heir of Winterfell

Actually Bran was second in line to inherit Winterfell. Sansa may be the second oldest, but Bran is the second oldest boy, and inheritance goes to the male children first. Rickon would inherit Winterfell before Sansa would.

 

[Ophiucha]

True, though spoilers for season/book 2 in regards to the how the rest of the world views that in particular. Also, the first daughter still has a lot of obligations and power. She's the one who was already betrothed, as opposed to her sister who had no such obligation (yet), and she still technically has the power to potentially inherit Winterfell for her husband, if not for herself. That sort of thing happened often enough, particularly when the next oldest sons are as young as Bran and Rickon are compared to Robb. (And she'd still inherit before Jon Snow.)

 

[A. E. Lowan]

And because I must bring Joss to the table...
Joss Whedon "Pissed Off" By Lack of Female Superheroes In Movies | The Mary Sue

 

[saellys]

Then he should have put some in Avengers!

 

[Devor]

Apparently he's a big fan of Wasp, but I'm hoping for Miss Marvel.

 

[glutton]

Red She Hulk.

...mostly joking...

 

[Zero Angel]

Other than the females of the X-Men, I can't think of any female Marvel character that I'm interested in. I mean, Black Cat and Ultimate Carnage were cool in Spider-Man, but they don't really fit in very well outside of Spider-Man. I don't know anything about Miss Marvel and I always found the Wasp underwhelming. I thought it was a shame that Black Widow didn't have a super-soldier background for the Avengers, but maybe they will retcon it in the upcoming Winter Soldier movie.

Am I forgetting someone cool?

DC has Wonder Woman, but they've been doing their best to drive away all female readers of comics as of late. I guess it wouldn't be bad if women that were in teams got their own movie franchises. It worked for Wolverine (although he's always been a bit of a loner).

 

[Mindfire]

Then he should have put some in Avengers!

Black Widow was present. And she was pretty cool.

 

[Chessie]

Red She Hulk.

...mostly joking...

THAT would be cheese upon cheese! Muahaha!