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High word count expectation is not fair!
- Thread starter ClearDragon
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Seems reasonable to me, but most publishers disagree
Which is reason #43 why I self-publish rather than go through traditional outlets.
Meep
Acolyte
I write kidlit (mostly) and the general range is ~40,000-70,000 for middle grade.
But if you write for adults/general market, you can try places like Tor.com (closed indefinitely but supposedly plan to reopen eventually) and The Fantasist (you can join their mailing list for info on when they're open for subs).
Submission Grinder lets you search currently open markets and filter by word count/payment per word/(sub)genre/etc. I punched in 50,0000 words as a sample and there's a p long list of open markets right now.
It's true that big, mainstream publishers tend to want long, long, long for fantasy books, but that's not the only place to publish if you don't want to go the self-publishing route.
But if you write for adults/general market, you can try places like Tor.com (closed indefinitely but supposedly plan to reopen eventually) and The Fantasist (you can join their mailing list for info on when they're open for subs).
Submission Grinder lets you search currently open markets and filter by word count/payment per word/(sub)genre/etc. I punched in 50,0000 words as a sample and there's a p long list of open markets right now.
It's true that big, mainstream publishers tend to want long, long, long for fantasy books, but that's not the only place to publish if you don't want to go the self-publishing route.
Cargoplayer
Dreamer
There is nothing fair or not fair about it. It’s what’s being asked for by the company who is going to pay you an advance, then put all their power of marketing, manufacturing and distribution behind you. They don’t have to be fair in this regard, they are purchasing something, and have said what they want. When I was younger and still sending in paper queries, they were very clear on paper type, font, spacing, and content. People still insisted on sending things in on purple paper, with cursive fonts, because they felt they should stand out. From all accounts I’ve read, those went straight to trash.
You have to remember that the people with the slush pile, while they are looking for things that would work, are also ready to take your stuff and toss it. If you don’t fit the requirements they’ve put out, you’re going to be done at the start. There are lots of more folks in that slush pile. So look for markets that fit your writing output, or do something different.
You have to remember that the people with the slush pile, while they are looking for things that would work, are also ready to take your stuff and toss it. If you don’t fit the requirements they’ve put out, you’re going to be done at the start. There are lots of more folks in that slush pile. So look for markets that fit your writing output, or do something different.
Malik
Auror
Wow, how do I break this to you . . .
Cargoplayer
Dreamer
In theory, they are going to put their power of marketing behind you.....
Malik
Auror
There we go.
Publishers fight for their catalogues and that's nothing to sneeze at exactly. But they don't really fight for individual books. Being in the catalogue of a big name publisher might get a book 30 seconds of attention from a wholesale buyer at B&N, for example. It's not a lot but how else do you get those thirty seconds?
Malik
Auror
Pretty much the only reason I'm shopping my next series.
I've run the numbers again and again. I'd lose money signing to a major publisher unless I land a Netflix series as a result.
OTOH, it's likely that more people would read my stuff if I had a huge NY publisher advocating for me, even if they only do so parenthetically, as part of their catalog.
Demesnedenoir
Myth Weaver
Anecdotally, another indie author who has struck it rather bigger than me, lost money (6 figures) by going trad up front, but on the backside, they increased their readership to such a degree that it paid off in the long run. Now, last I knew, they pretty much run as a hybrid. The one major sticking point they had was that the Pub (almost seems like the imprint was Orbit?) didn't want to pay much for the audio rights, and therefore, I think the author flipped back indie on their new series. And the series was a 7 figure deal, or high 6, if I recall correctly. There's no way to prove this, just the word of the author. But, I will shop my next standalone and series on the back of award wins and pro reviews.
joshua mcdermott
Sage
I am also in the novella range.. i actually do NOT like the overblown prose of many fantasy books which seems only to be there to add word count. I do not think that a 40k book cannot tell a story- just as you say- Moorcock and Zelazny did just fine- and arguably much better for it.
but publisher wise they want a thick tome so they can charge $10. I am not so sure why not charge $3 for a smaller book.. ?
but publisher wise they want a thick tome so they can charge $10. I am not so sure why not charge $3 for a smaller book.. ?
Malik
Auror
Because you're screwing yourself if you charge less, but that's a conversation for another time and place. If you want to talk pricing strategies, start a new thread. I've got plenty to say about it.
Demesnedenoir
Myth Weaver
Profit margins on print books tend to go down, which is part of the reason huge books from unproven authors are scarce in trad.
Puck
Troubadour
Terry Pratchett's discworld novels were often less that 80k. In fact the first couple were under 60k I think.
Therein lies the problem with traditional publishing - it is a conservative business (I know, I used to work in it - not in fiction though).
Publishing has become gradually more corporate and risk averse in recent years I think and this kind of thing is a symptom of that. Publishers want stuff they know will sell and that means (unfortunately) "more of the same". New and different = risk. But, alas, you need to play the game if you want to go down the trad publishing road.
Don't get me wrong, I bet there are some people in those publishing companies who'd love to "go rogue" and publish something different that doesn't conform to the "rules" - but its a big risk to take. The only people in publishing companies who'd be more inclined to take such a risk would be anyone whose recently discovered a best selling author - as their star will be on the rise with the corporate powers that be they will have more leeway to take a few risks and break a few rules. [that advice is probably more use to agents than writers though, as they will be more likely to have the contacts and know who those people are at any one point in time].
Prince of Spires
Istar
I'm wondering if it's only about being conservative or simply decent business sense. There's only a limited number of books a publisher can publish per year. They get 10's of thousands of manuscript submissions per year. If you need to chose 10 books to publish out of that and it's a low margin business, will you pick the ones that you "know" will sell enough to make your money back and then some or will you take a chance on something which may or may not do well?
With a traditional publisher the financial risk lies with the publisher. In that situation you can only afford so many misses before you go out of business. I can imagine that you play safe in such a case and have a very limited nr of spots available for wild cards which do something different.
With a traditional publisher the financial risk lies with the publisher. In that situation you can only afford so many misses before you go out of business. I can imagine that you play safe in such a case and have a very limited nr of spots available for wild cards which do something different.
Puck
Troubadour
It is a bit of both. Publishing is a low margin business as a general rule, so you can't afford to take too many risks. Many of the big publishers have also struggled to adapt to the digital world & took a good while to get that side of things right (some might still be behind the curve on that even now). Covid did not help with book retailers being closed for potentially long periods of time in some countries. The group that owns Orbit saw its revenues decline at little in 2020, so they are under a squeeze.
Unfortunately what it does tend to mean is that trad publishing cannot afford to take too many risks on anything new/different/potentially ground-breaking.
So, if you are looking for first time authors for epic fantasy, that means you are mostly looking for novel lengths that you know will sell, themes and story types that you know will sell and so on. i.e. more of the same.
That may mean that, over time, trad publishers end up being conservative businesses that follow trends rather than set trends. If that happens, that might increasingly mean that readers will need to look at indie to find anything genuinely new/ground-breaking/trend setting.
Trad then becomes all about jumping on bandwagons and running with them. That's the danger.
