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Thoughts on Adverbs

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
The reader can't always be right, because which one? Which group? The notion sounds good, much like the customer is always right, but that's bullshit, heh heh. You treat the customer like they're right... that's business, but it's not the truth.

This reminds me of a recent customer service incident where I thought I was right and then realized I was being a friggin' idiot, LOL. Boy, was this customer wrong, LMAO. Made a fool of myself that day.



This actually does raise another interesting thought on adverbs. Namely that there may very well be a differenec (and a big one) between what reviewers and critics thinks is important and what readers consider important.

Just to put things in perspective, JK Rowling has sold more books than all the writers in pmmg 's list of authors complaining about adverbs combined. Which includes Stephen King's 300 million or so books. And while EL James "only" sold 100 million books, compared to King's 300 million, she did so with only 3 books instead of 77 of King.

Who is right then? I would argue the reader is always right. And while both Rowling and James happened to get lucky and be at the right place at the right time with their books, it's hard to argue with 700 million books sold... It might just be that a lot of readers don't mind fan fiction level prose if it tells a good story. It might even be a lot more accessible than a lot of other prose.

All that just to say that we might very well be worrying about adverbs way to much. And that the most important thing is to tell a good story. Yes, fewer adverbs can help there, but it's by no means a guarantee. And having them doesn't stop people from enjoying your book, and they might even help.
 
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I mean some of the most successful authors are being named dropped here who clearly use lots of adverbs, so perhaps the average reader just wants a great story rather then ‘great writing’ for the most part, and doesn’t care about adverbs. I’m not gonna sweat it next time I use one, though I’m more conscious of them now!
 
The reader can't always be right, because which one? Which group? The notion sounds good, much like the customer is always right, but that's bullshit, heh heh. You treat the customer like they're right... that's business, but it's not the truth.

This reminds me of a recent customer service incident where I thought I was right and then realized I was being a friggin' idiot, LOL. Boy, was this customer wrong, LMAO. Made a fool of myself that day.
Also, we can’t quantify the number of readers who have stopped reading a book after the first chapter or two.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
I mean some of the most successful authors are being named dropped here who clearly use lots of adverbs, so perhaps the average reader just wants a great story rather then ‘great writing’ for the most part, and doesn’t care about adverbs. I’m not gonna sweat it next time I use one, though I’m more conscious of them now!

It could be all this fretting we do about our craft is simply a waste of energy. I try to bring my quality up, and maybe its not needed. I am asking myself now if I even really need an editor. If they zap all my adverbs, will it be any better because of it?

I will never know. I suppose personally, I will feel it is, but the proof would only come from a comparison of before and after, which the market wont get.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
Also, we can’t quantify the number of readers who have stopped reading a book after the first chapter or two.

Ahh...I forgot that two. JK may have the most readers, but she may also have the highest percentage of 'put it down', which would not be measured.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Learn the flaw of their nature, and you'll be a better writer. Readers won't often know why they stop reading, they don't think about it that much, that's the job of writers, editors, and publishers. If the goal is traditional publishing, weak adverbs will kill you.

Some people live to a hundred smoking two packs a day, but that doesn't mean you will. Your best odds of living to a hundred is to not smoke and live as healthy as you can. The odds of success in publishing are better using limited adverbs and writing the best you can... those two things go together.
I mean some of the most successful authors are being named dropped here who clearly use lots of adverbs, so perhaps the average reader just wants a great story rather then ‘great writing’ for the most part, and doesn’t care about adverbs. I’m not gonna sweat it next time I use one, though I’m more conscious of them now!
 
But for every person who put the books down I bet there were two more who carried on reading, hence the success. And successful doesn’t always mean good quality.

I suppose when we look inward too much we’re at risk of writing for other writers, much like chefs making food for other chefs and so on…
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
James would smoke Rowling in that number, I suspect, LMAO. But yeah, it's like I own 2 copies of Name of the Wind but I will never finish either, LMAO.
Ahh...I forgot that two. JK may have the most readers, but she may also have the highest percentage of 'put it down', which would not be measured.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
But for every person who put the books down I bet there were two more who carried on reading

I would think the opposite. I dont think the majority of ppl would choose to read if they did not have to. Maybe in the subset that would read on their own otherwise. But even there, I would suspect reject outnumbers acceptance.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
Acutally, I did put 50 Shades down. I likened it to having Mall Girl voice. I wonder if it was the overuse of adverbs...
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Curiosity after hearing how bad it was. I did the Dave Berry thing, I opened it to a random paragraph, read part of it, cringed, laughed, and put it down.

And that wasn't even a naughty bit.

I’m very surprised either of you even opened the book! I know I didn’t! 😆
 

A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
Acutally, I did put 50 Shades down. I likened it to having Mall Girl voice. I wonder if it was the overuse of adverbs...
I think it was the overuse of a childish tone to try (badly) to communicate the FMC's innocence. Just because a character is naive doesn't mean they need to sound like an idiot.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
I’m very surprised either of you even opened the book! I know I didn’t!

Well, I liked the movie, and I did not enjoy all the hate it got on my long ago forum home. So...I thought I would get my own opinion. I did not like the book as much. Which I thought I would, but.... I also did not care for Kushiel's Dart, which was written better. That was another that came up at the time. Anyway, the voice in 50 shades grated on me.
 

A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
I’m very surprised either of you even opened the book! I know I didn’t! 😆
I did. It was... special. But I believe in studying what works and what doesn't, especially in my genre (which isn't erotica, at least for the purposes of this discussion. ;) ), and through that I become a better drafter and my team produces better work.
 
I did. It was... special. But I believe in studying what works and what doesn't, especially in my genre (which isn't erotica, at least for the purposes of this discussion. ;) ), and through that I become a better drafter and my team produces better work.
All in the name of research 😉 it’s just not my thing so not something I would spend time reading when I have a billion books I already want to read is all.

It always gets me though how so many writers and readers get ‘erotica’ confused with ‘romance’. Romance isn’t just a nicer description for erotica…it’s an entirely different genre! Like saying Austen and EL James write the same kinds of books when they really really don’t. I wonder how many adverbs Austen used…
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
Yeah....I'd not equate them the same. But...I like the world unfiltered. So, none of it bothers me. I'd not be ashamed to say I enjoyed it, if I did, which for 50 shades, I did not. Not because of content, because of voice.
 
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Ban

Troglodytic Trouvère
Article Team
I don't understand why there's such a great disdain for "-ly" adverbs among English-language authors, especially those residing in the upper echelons of the craft. Perhaps I have not spent enough time in the Dutch or Limburgish literary landscapes, but anecdotally (Aha found one!) speaking our -lijk en -lek respectively do not receive an iota of the scorn poor -ly must endure.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
Austen: 128 per 10k words. She's kind of high middle ground.

It's also important to note that not all -ly adverbs are created equal... Austen hits us with one right off the bat in Pride and Prejudice...

"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife."

That is not the typical adverb that people are going to bitch about. That's a great opening line, and Austen's narrative voice is so strong she overpowers the adverbs.

Her next -ly is in dialogue and shouldn't be argued with, but could be: "and was so much delighted with it that he agreed with Mr. Morris immediately"

My immediate impression of Austen's work is what I would expect: the -ly adverbs are biased toward dialogue.



I wonder how many adverbs Austen used…
 
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