Writing characters that are awkward about sex (or romance in general)

[Mad Swede]

So I have to step back and watch everything I say treading lightly so I won't have to be continually put in my place, but you can all run your mouths saying whatever you want? Doesn't sound very inclusive, does it? Sounds more like...hypocrisy.

I simply commented on someone talking about romance over sex. Lowen jumped in with their love of writing sex. I commented back and was met with mockery. Doesn't make me wrong.

This sure is a really f*** toxic place, huh. No wonder no one from outside stays around.

You wrote:

And your team is clearly lust-based. And THAT is what makes it impure.

That is not debating about how we as writers best describe characters who are awkward about sex, that is attacking a person whom you don't agree with. What they call an ad hominem argument. The sort of thing which creates a toxic environment.

And it's all just a bit dumb Josh2Write, because if you took a few steps back and didn't shoot from the lip you'd realise that some people in this discussion agree with you when you write:

The story is. Sex should only happen if it adds something to the story, not just put in for the heck of it so creeps can feel more dirty.

So chill, and you might find we can have a constructive discussion where we encourage and support each other.

 

[Josh2Write]

You wrote:

That is not debating about how we as writers best describe characters who are awkward about sex, that is attacking a person whom you don't agree with. What they call an ad hominem argument. The sort of thing which creates a toxic environment.

And it's all just a bit dumb Josh2Write, because if you took a few steps back and didn't shoot from the lip you'd realise that some people in this discussion agree with you when you write:


So chill, and you might find we can have a constructive discussion where we encourage and support each other.

You didn't say you agreed with anything. You're only just saying it now. And I said lust-based AFTER Lowen said I was calling sex impure. I never said that, I said good for the original writer creating romance without sex. And it offended Lowen who said they love sex sex sex. Didn't say why, just that it loved writing sex. And didn't have a follow up, just a sarcastic remark about getting it printed on a shirt. That's not a discussion, that's acting like a child right after calling me one, repeatedly. And I didn't attack anyone, Lewan came to my comment first.

 

[Mad Swede]

You didn't say you agreed with anything. You're only just saying it now.

Please, go back and read what I wrote earlier in the thread. Then think about it. Think about what others have written. Remember, not all of us in this forum come from the same country and culture as you. We don't always express ourselves in the same way that you would. And we don't always explicitly say we agree or disagree with one another. Sometimes half the fun lies in writing/talking.

 

[Josh2Write]

Please, go back and read what I wrote earlier in the thread. Then think about it. Think about what others have written. Remember, not all of us in this forum come from the same country and culture as you. We don't always express ourselves in the same way that you would. And we don't always explicitly say we agree or disagree with one another. Sometimes half the fun lies in writing/talking.

No, YOU go back up and find it and show me where you agreed with me on this specific issue. Don't try to turn this around on me.

And if you really do acknowledge we don't all talk the same then stop blindly defending the ones who talk the same as me. Because they know what they're doing.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

And, you're done.

We're a pretty laidback community for the most part, but coming in here and yelling and carrying on does nothing but alienate the people around you. I get not fitting in here. No group has what everyone needs, all the time.

Absolute Write

This is a very good, established forum that has a wide variety of writing to discuss, ranging all across the literary map. They may have a group who you would better align with and be able to discuss your work with more like-minded writers. I think you will be happier there.

 

[Josh2Write]

And, you're done.

We're a pretty laidback community for the most part, but coming in here and yelling and carrying on does nothing but alienate the people around you. I get not fitting in here. No group has what everyone needs, all the time.

Absolute Write

This is a very good, established forum that has a wide variety of writing to discuss, ranging all across the literary map. They may have a group who you would better align with and be able to discuss your work with more like-minded writers. I think you will be happier there.

Mostly laid back? This septic tank of a commune hasn't stopped putting me down since my very first comment. No matter what I say, on any issue, you all have an immediate answer dripping with condescension. You ignore any positive things I've said, and only focus on things that can coincide with what you've labeled me, so you can feel important. And the longer it's gone on the more you tell yourselves you're right. But you labeled me, got my dander up, ran with assumptions and haven't let off since, so that is on you. YOU labeled ME.

Wonderful example of totalitarianism you have going here, deciding who gets to speak and who doesn't, just taking bits out of context to sound important. And you Lowen specifically, only popping up when you can appear like a voice of reason, you snake. Go back to the rafters overlooking chat and eat your popcorn. That's the moment when I knew you weren't a good person, your original popcorn comment. Haven't figured out yet if you're a narcissist or sociopath, the same goes for pmmg, but you are both some kind of twisted and no one should listen to either of you.

Note: this entire comment is not for the new people of course, just the nest of toxic lifer rats. Run, new people, run!

Absolute Write? Sure, why not...

 

[A. E. Lowan]

 

[Josh2Write]

Yep. Thanks for proving me right, again.

 

[pmmg]

The heart girl goes too fast, she might give me seizures.

But here is one back at you.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

The heart girl goes too fast, she might give me seizures.

Yeah... she was slower when I started. lol Let me find something better. And the hand scupture is fantastic. Love it! <3

Somewhere in Seahaven... which itself is a running gag / running while casting / avoiding being eaten by the cab driver sort of fun we have here with Team Lowan. Also, I am bent. I am the Mayor of There, and my mom raised herself a fancy pants little writer. Plus... Irish.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I think character motivations and personality can be shown in their attitude towards sex. While he might sometimes write sex just for the sake of it, G.R.R. Martin does this well in Game of Thrones. Tyrion Lanister approaches it very differently from a Jamie / Cersei who again view it differently from John Snow. It says something about their personalities and keeps their characters consistent. It's also a matter of staying true to the story and the characters. If he'd write their attitudes differently because he didn't want to write sex then he'd be betraying the story.

So, from the adult side of the discussion, I love to write sex. Most of the other authors I know also love to write sex.

Funny aside, I regularly hang out with a Romance author on Youtube when writing. She writes the spicy kind of Romance. In her process, she writes the story first, and then once its all done, she goes back and adds in all the spicy scenes. She doesn't actually particularly like writing them. Though that might also just be because she puts them in at the end, once she just wants to get the stupid thing out the door...

avoiding being eaten by the cab driver

Isn't eating your passengers bad for business?

 

[Miles Lacey]

You'll notice that in many crime dramas with male and female main characters the drama always seem to tease the viewers with the hope that the two characters will become romantically involved. Over time the two characters become more platonically intimate with each other. Curiously, the sex side of things only comes about when the show is coming to an end - or not at all.

As long as the romance side of things hints that something more may develop between the characters and that the romance between the two people concerned doesn't come across as contrived or fake there should be no problems with how it is written.

The thing that has me intrigued is why the OP doesn't want to write sex scenes. I don't have a problem with him not wanting to write them but knowing more about why they're not interested in writing sex scenes in their fiction would be interesting.

 

[pmmg]

Yeah... she was slower when I started. lol Let me find something better. And the hand scupture is fantastic. Love it! <3

Somewhere in Seahaven... which itself is a running gag / running while casting / avoiding being eaten by the cab driver sort of fun we have here with Team Lowan. Also, I am bent. I am the Mayor of There, and my mom raised herself a fancy pants little writer. Plus... Irish.

View attachment 3997

Well I won't go with you on that one.

I'd also argue that saying I am willing to talk or do things around sex means, I claim the adult position in the room. That only happens when one is actually being an adult, the subject matter ancillary to that.

 

[pmmg]

Funny aside, I regularly hang out with a Romance author on Youtube when writing. She writes the spicy kind of Romance. In her process, she writes the story first, and then once its all done, she goes back and adds in all the spicy scenes. She doesn't actually particularly like writing them. Though that might also just be because she puts them in at the end, once she just wants to get the stupid thing out the door...

I find writing sex scenes is a lot like writing battles. There is a lot of describing the actual physical motion of things. Both take up a lot of space to get even small bits across. And after one has written hundreds of them, the process of writing them does wear a little thin. I've not written a sex scene in a long while. Maybe its time. I will just sub one in for the next battle and see how it goes.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hi there Josh2Write

Several members of Mythic Scribes have expressed concern about your actions in the community. While you are welcome to stay and participate in our chat and threads, please keep in mind that constant argumentative behavior, constant negativity and posting snide or degrading comments is definitely not allowed.

Everyone, let’s continue the thread in peace.

 

[Mad Swede]

Isn't eating your passengers bad for business?

This being A. E. Lowan we're talking about I have to ask what sort of eating is meant? It might be good for return business...

 

[pmmg]

Some things I dont want to know

 

[A. E. Lowan]

This being A. E. Lowan we're talking about I have to ask what sort of eating is meant? It might be good for return business...

Long pig is a specialty meat. didn't you know? A Seahaven fav, if you know who to ask. And being hip enough to know is hip enough to get into any club in the city. Just maybe park under the lights? The Seahaven Police Department would appreciate it.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

It depends a bit on what role it plays in the story.

If it's simply how they talk to other characters, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. And if it gives them an unique voice, then go for it. Making characters sound distinct is hard enough. Achieving this with them being flirty is fine.

If you're doing it to show personality and / or character journey, then you might want to be careful with repetition. Repeating character beats multiple times without showing us something new about the character can start to feel like you're beating your readers over the head with it. It then feels like the character is simply stuck in place and has no depth to her.

Show us something new with the different flirting bits. Or show some character growth (or negative growth, that still counts). That keeps it fresh and interesting and gets us more invested in the characters.

Yep, my main concern is repetition of the bit and the bit getting stale for both characters. I don't know if you're familiar with One Piece, but there's a character in the main cast who has this bit, and it's kind of his whole thing. 1,071 episodes in, he's still a grade A idiot around women and hasn't changed at all. (Despite a rather ... harrowing experience with a certain group of characters) Look, I like Sanji and he's an awesome guy, but lord do I groan every time his 'quirk' comes up in an episode. Same thing with Usoop, he's mostly fine...mostly, but his 'quirk' doesn't change or mature throughout the entire series. Usop is especially annoying because there's a section of the story where it seems like he's going to change, but nope, doesn't happen.

It gets to a point where I'm like 'look, I get that it's there for comedic relief, but dude, shake it up, do something different.' and I would really like to avoid my characters being that way across the board when I write them, regardless of their 'quirk' be it flirty or overreacting to lewdness etc just quirks in general that are defining traits. I want to avoid these traits becoming stale if I can.

To be clear, this concern extends to any quirks I give my characters, especially if it's their main defining one. I've seen plenty of anime and other media where this stuff gets tiresome even though the characters are otherwise well written. I understand that good character writing is challenging and difficult to do well but I personally feel that characters can carry even the silliest story pretty well. (I mean just look at Wreck it Ralph and Who Framed Rogger Rabbit)

Side Note: Apologies for being quiet for a couple of weeks, I've been in the hospital for tummy problems (nothing life threatening, don't worry) and didn't have access to this forum. I am currently back home and feeling pretty healthy but I might stick to the soft diet for now.

PS: If you guys want to argue about morals regarding sex in novels could you do it elsewhere? I feel like that can be a healthy discussion (provided both parties are polite and not bickering like rabid animals) but that's a bit off topic for this thread.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Yep, my main concern is repetition of the bit and the bit getting stale for both characters. I don't know if you're familiar with One Piece, but there's a character in the main cast who has this bit, and it's kind of his whole thing. 1,071 episodes in, he's still a grade A idiot around women and hasn't changed at all. (Despite a rather ... harrowing experience with a certain group of characters) Look, I like Sanji and he's an awesome guy, but lord do I groan every time his 'quirk' comes up in an episode. Same thing with Usoop, he's mostly fine...mostly, but his 'quirk' doesn't change or mature throughout the entire series. Usop is especially annoying because there's a section of the story where it seems like he's going to change, but nope, doesn't happen.

It gets to a point where I'm like 'look, I get that it's there for comedic relief, but dude, shake it up, do something different.' and I would really like to avoid my characters being that way across the board when I write them, regardless of their 'quirk' be it flirty or overreacting to lewdness etc just quirks in general that are defining traits. I want to avoid these traits becoming stale if I can.

Very much this indeed. I haven't seen One Piece (yet...). But this does explain what I meant. And to be clear, this goes for all character development, and not just how a character flirts or treats other people. But a character stuck in a single place not making any progress gets anoying quickly.

I relate it to Sanderson's theory about promise, progress, and payoff (watch his lectures on Youtube to learn more ). But if you show a character being an idiot around women, then as a reader we expect to see it be part of the story. We want to see progress around that plot thread (even if it's only a B plot), and we want some kind of payoff.

And it doesn't need to be big. If it's only a minor sub-plot, then the progress can just be the character trying a few different things. And the payoff can simply be the character having a normal conversation with a woman.

But it's a way to show us something about the character and how they change. It reminds me about something I once read about movies. There apparently is a guideline to never visit the same location twice in a film. Partly because of the limited available run-time, but visiting the same location twice wastes an opportunity to show us something more about the world or the characters. The same applies here.