Your Most Hated Tropes

[Incanus]

Clone may not be the best word here, as it is an exact copy.

But if I did include a Dark Lord in my fantasy novel, I would fully expect to be compared to Tolkien, at least on that one idea. It might not be fair, but I find precious little in life to be fair anyway, and this one would be relatively minor.

Though I'm a huge Tolkien fan, I have no interest in borrowing his creations from him. I use only one major takeaway--a detailed and consistent secondary world as background for an immersive fantasy story. That's the only way in which I'm similar to Tolkien. I'm rather surprised at how many people use his elves or orcs or cursed magical talismans, etc. Inventing my own stuff is half the fun for me--I don't want to use the creations of others directly.

 

[pmmg]

Well...that's kind of what I mean by grabbing the low hanging fruit.


Use a magic sword, must be Tolkien.
Use a dark lord, must be Tolkien
Use a different race, must be Tolkien
Use a strange language, must be Tolkien
Use an evil artifact, must be Tolkien.

Tolkien grabbed up so much stuff, its hard to get away from his shadow.

Just thinking about the way a fantasy world works, well, there might be magic and strange languages. Languages are not the result of copying Tolkien, but just a consequence of traveling to unfamiliar places in the world. So, an illusion is created, that the inspiration was to try and be like him, when really, it was trying to portray a more authentic world. Tolkien and I just answered the question the same way. The question only left itself with such an answer.

That is not to say Tolkien did not get to the higher fruit, its just to say, that any fantasy author, writing just about anything, will have someone say, you tried to copy Tolkien. But you know what, I actually hate his writing. Its too long winded and full of stuff that just wastes my time. I want my stories to stand on their own and not be thought of as a Tolkien clone. Its probably an impossible feat, cause Fantasy...must be Tolkien. Probably it more a problem of the Zeitgeist than Tolkien himself, but its still an inaccurate measure.

 

[Incanus]

I can see how that would be a problem. I have not been having this experience myself. I can't think of a single instance of my work being written off as a Tolkien copy. However, very few have read my first failed novel, and not many have read my short stories, so I have admittedly limited exposure.

However, if I was getting that kind of feedback, I would likely ignore it. Anyone saying that is clearly not very well read and\ or largely ignorant about fantasy. (Not that it is important for a given person to know about that stuff--I don't think I could name a single football player that is active these days.)

I guess one would have to choose: ignore such sentiments, or change your work so that it does not draw such comparisons.

I have to ask, though: are there really a ton of people out there reacting to all fantasy writing with: Tolkien rip off! Tolkien copy! Tolkien clone! I am extremely skeptical that this is so. So far, you are the only one I've been hearing this from. I don't doubt there are others, but how common is it?

 

[Miles Lacey]

This made me think of Harry Potter at first but Harry and Ron are both dumb goofballs.

Would you mind explaining? According to LotR fanboys every fantasy series out there copied Tokien and is therefore bad and its author a fraud. I don't want to get mad making up a scenario where you have said exactly this

Also, what do you think of the Narnia books?

I won't deny that Tolkien was a great fantasy writer and that he paid a great attention to detail. However, his fans choose to ignore the fact that he did so because he was writing at a time when film and television were at their infancy. The grand, sweeping epics that he wrote are worthy of the accolades that have been made about him but some fantasy writers need to stop trying to emulate him. What I'm looking for in fantasy is a greater diversity of races, creatures, settings and so forth.

i am not a fanboy of Tolkien. I just believe in giving credit where it's due. I also can't stand Elvis Presley but i would be foolish to downplay or ignorr the huge contribution he made to music.

As for what I think about the Narnia series?

IF I told you I'd make even gangsta rappers blush.

 

[Gurkhal]

I haven't even read the Narnia series even if I have seen a TV adaption of them. I guess that I'll have to check them out, along with Lloyd Alexander's works. I read Alexander's first book many years ago but I never properly went through them.

 

[pmmg]

I have to ask, though: are there really a ton of people out there reacting to all fantasy writing with: Tolkien rip off! Tolkien copy! Tolkien clone! I am extremely skeptical that this is so. So far, you are the only one I've been hearing this from. I don't doubt there are others, but how common is it?

I suspect this comment will come more from people who already have found reasons to reject fantasy as not their thing. If pop around on good reads, you will see this comment come up in places. But...I am not going to go do a scientific study for it.

But focusing on the comments is not the point. They point is it is hard to write stuff that Tolkien does not already have. And that in writing stuff he may already have is not truly an indication of tying to emulate Tolkien, but instead both he and other writers drew from same stuff available for fantasy stories. That is the part that gets lost.

And now I am going to exit stage left from this thread.

 

[LittleOwlbear]

That is not to say Tolkien did not get to the higher fruit, its just to say, that any fantasy author, writing just about anything, will have someone say, you tried to copy Tolkien. But you know what, I actually hate his writing. Its too long winded and full of stuff that just wastes my time. I want my stories to stand on their own and not be thought of as a Tolkien clone. Its probably an impossible feat, cause Fantasy...must be Tolkien. Probably it more a problem of the Zeitgeist than Tolkien himself, but its still an inaccurate measure.

It's not the writing I dislike, but ...
- the romanticization of monarchy with "the one true king that needs to return"
- the various Christian allegories, he's almost on the same level as Lewis with this
- the immortal elbs that hold up his Christian sexual morals like no sex before marriage lol and the elbs are like the humans before sinning as I read.
- the racist tones like "the wild men from the East are the only ones to side with Sauron."
- especially that almost everything in the world is dictated and ruled and controlled by men only

But some Tolkien fans, fantasy fans, in general think people are obglitated to kiss the ground Tolkien walked on, while there are series with stories and especially characters that resonated much more with me.
I dare to say I rather play BG3 again and resonate much more with characters, stories, the world etc...
I love to write DnD-like elves, not Tolkien-like elves.

While of course I have to acknowkedge how much thought he put into languages, I don't like stories for their languages.

 

[LittleOwlbear]

There are a few tropes I always hate:

- abusive relationships including the "bad boys", possessive behaviorn, jealousy etc...

- men that are like untamed animals and growl every five minutes. I know he's a werewolf, he still is in human form right now. That is so cringe I put it away, also because it meets the abusive partner-trope

- detailled rape

- women, who are presented as "girlbosses", but are just insufferable towards everyone, minus points if she hates other women and tells you she is not like the other girls straight away

- most enemies to lovers. When I hated someone's guts I never changed my mind, because I have a spine. No, I won't to come to like the comically misogynistic and murderous asshole, because he told me his sappy backstory. I lose respect for the heroine, if she does.

For magic and worldbuilding:
- The evil matriarchy that are basically a patriarchies turned around. So yeah, I know the patriarchy is almost comically evil, I have to live in one, but please do something else not "patriarchy, but women hold all the power and act exactly the same."
Matriarchies in my story / with my elves: if the elf, who gives birth, is part of the clan, the child also will be part of the clan. It easily becomes a matriarchy that way, but it also holds implications like less jealousy, no control over female and afab bodies etc..., because you don't need to know who the father is. Quite a lot live in poly relationships too.

- "there has to be sexism, duh, because it has been like that 'back then'"-arguments.
Same goes for the lack of any hygiene and medieval farmers are only eating not identifable mud stew and wearing mud brown clothes, which really dumbs down the medieval age.

- the synopsis promises a great war etc... I just want to read more fantasy that is not about war.

- magic that is so hard that is lost all elements of wonder and surprise in all ways. I don't hate it, I just don't like it either that much. It doesn't even matter the system itself, but how it's described

- grimdark. I can't be bothered most of the time.
I like my good portion of good characters and humor, even in dark fantasy.


Can't say I hate chosen ones or so, because there are works like Avatar out there.



For evil races / creatures:

I don't do that either except for demons, which are not a race but non-humanoid creatures which can tarn itself as humanoids. Good or ambigious demons that got popular became quite kitschy, imo. I want to see some horror out of this world. I like their real form to be monstrous beasts and not human-shaped.
What it makes it more interesting to me: Tieflings are of course not demons in any form, they do have souls, which can't be said for demons, but they suffer from people's beliefs that they are, and some internalize that belief too.

What's more important is that "they are evil" doesn't hit humanoids that had been stand-in allergories for real cultures.

 

[Mad Swede]

It's not the writing I dislike, but ...
- the romanticization of monarchy with "the one true king that needs to return"
- the various Christian allegories, he's almost on the same level as Lewis with this
- the immortal elbs that hold up his Christian sexual morals like no sex before marriage lol and the elbs are like the humans before sinning as I read.
- the racist tones like "the wild men from the East are the only ones to side with Sauron."
- especially that almost everything in the world is dictated and ruled and controlled by men only

But some Tolkien fans, fantasy fans, in general think people are obglitated to kiss the ground Tolkien walked on, while there are series with stories and especially characters that resonated much more with me.
I dare to say I rather play BG3 again and resonate much more with characters, stories, the world etc...
I love to write DnD-like elves, not Tolkien-like elves.

While of course I have to acknowkedge how much thought he put into languages, I don't like stories for their languages.

Except that The Lord of the Rings is not an allegory. If anything it's an example of Applicability in the philosophical sense of the word, and this becomes much clearer if you read The Silmarillion. Tolkien himself hated allegory and was very clear that the books were not intended as allegory.

As fot the Narnia books, they're an example of Supposition in the (medieval) philosophical meaning of the word. Which is no real surprise given that C S Lewis had read the so-called classical tripos (Greek and Latin literature, Philosophy and Ancient History, and English) gaining a triple first and had then gone on to become Tutor in Philosophy, later Fellow in English Literature and later still Professor in Medieval and Renaissance Literature. Lewis was an expert on allegory and categorically denied that the Narnia books were intended as allegory of any sort.

This is not to say that there are no Christian concepts in these books, but the books themselves are far more complex in their themes and messages.

 

[pmmg]

It's not the writing I dislike, but ...
- the romanticization of monarchy with "the one true king that needs to return"
- the various Christian allegories, he's almost on the same level as Lewis with this
- the immortal elbs that hold up his Christian sexual morals like no sex before marriage lol and the elbs are like the humans before sinning as I read.
- the racist tones like "the wild men from the East are the only ones to side with Sauron."
- especially that almost everything in the world is dictated and ruled and controlled by men only

But some Tolkien fans, fantasy fans, in general think people are obglitated to kiss the ground Tolkien walked on, while there are series with stories and especially characters that resonated much more with me.
I dare to say I rather play BG3 again and resonate much more with characters, stories, the world etc...
I love to write DnD-like elves, not Tolkien-like elves.

While of course I have to acknowkedge how much thought he put into languages, I don't like stories for their languages.

By Elbs, did you mean Elves?

I hate to comment on this one, cause I have already stated many times that I am not really a fan of Tolkien. But...it seems more like you don't like Christians, than anything Tolkien wrote. And he is not at all like Lewis in this. If I was trying to win converts, giving them a LOTR book would not be something useful to do. Lewis wrote a lot more, and is very wise and thought out, so...I would not discount him. And Mad Swede made a good post.

I just wish to say, Goldie is not against Christians or their work. They are great and loving people who are concerned about you. I know you are not open to them, as are not many others, and that's okay. But you are loved by God, and maybe in time that will change. I will pray for you.

 

[LittleOwlbear]

By Elbs, did you mean Elves?

I hate to comment on this one, cause I have already stated many times that I am not really a fan of Tolkien. But...it seems more like you don't like Christians, than anything Tolkien wrote. And he is not at all like Lewis in this. If I was trying to win converts, giving them a LOTR book would not be something useful to do. Lewis wrote a lot more, and is very wise and thought out, so...I would not discount him. And Mad Swede made a good post.

I just wish to say, Goldie is not against Christians or their work. They are great and loving people who are concerned about you. I know you are not open to them, as are not many others, and that's okay. But you are loved by God, and maybe in time that will change. I will pray for you.

Yes, they are called Elben in the German version, so I dunno.

Well, I wouldn't mind, but I don't like Christians morals in fantasy that are veiled as something else.
Whole society is, or has been, trying to shove Christians ideals down people's throat.

No, please don't. I find "I will pray for you" really intrusive and patronizing without consent. People either have their own faith, or lack thereof.

 

[Mad Swede]

Well, I wouldn't mind, but I don't like Christians morals in fantasy that are veiled as something else.

I take it then that you don't like David Gemmell's fantasy books? He admitted himself that he was deliberately putting Christian messages into his books, especially the idea of redemption.

Philip Pullman is another writer I assume you dislike based on what you wrote. He claimed to be writing a sort of antidote to Lewis' books, but did so without understanding that Lewis was not writing allegorical stories. The somewhat ironic result is that in many ways Pullman's books have an even more (unintended) Christian message than the Narnia books.

 

[Karlin]

I take it then that you don't like David Gemmell's fantasy books? He admitted himself that he was deliberately putting Christian messages into his books, especially the idea of redemption.

Philip Pullman is another writer I assume you dislike based on what you wrote. He claimed to be writing a sort of antidote to Lewis' books, but did so without understanding that Lewis was not writing allegorical stories. The somewhat ironic result is that in many ways Pullman's books have an even more (unintended) Christian message than the Narnia books.

The very term " redemption " means diffrent things in different contexts and cultures. It doesn't mean the same thing for Jews and Christians , and if Sun Wukong "redeems" himself by protecting Xuanzang, what does that mean?

 

[Mad Swede]

The very term " redemption " means diffrent things in different contexts and cultures. It doesn't mean the same thing for Jews and Christians , and if Sun Wukong "redeems" himself by protecting Xuanzang, what does that mean?

That may be so, but what LittleOwlbear was objecting to was the supposed Christian morals in The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia. I'm pointing out that there are other books which contain very deliberate Christian messages which haven't been mentioned at all. The question then becomes one of which books and authors should one avoid because of the presence of such messages?

 

[LittleOwlbear]

I take it then that you don't like David Gemmell's fantasy books? He admitted himself that he was deliberately putting Christian messages into his books, especially the idea of redemption.

Philip Pullman is another writer I assume you dislike based on what you wrote. He claimed to be writing a sort of antidote to Lewis' books, but did so without understanding that Lewis was not writing allegorical stories. The somewhat ironic result is that in many ways Pullman's books have an even more (unintended) Christian message than the Narnia books.

How? Pullman's whole worldbuilding and motif is about critizing religious institutions.

 

[pmmg]

No, please don't. I find "I will pray for you" really intrusive and patronizing without consent. People either have their own faith, or lack thereof.

So they do. I suspect you and I would not get along very well in this world, but I will choose to love you regardless. And treat you as best I can. I can respect your request. But, there is a lot hostility in you to be this repulsed by just a book with a Christian theme, or an offer of prayer. I hope you find more peace than that.

Mr. Swede can answer about Mr. Pullman.

I will just add, that writers 'sneaking' Christian themes into their books is not some nefarious plot. People write the world as they understand, and put in it the things they believe are true. How could I write a story that that is worthy without putting the truth in it? I am sorry, but I dont promise not to have Christian views and values in many of things I write. You won't have to read them. But...A lot of the world is, and and has been, Christian.

/nuff on that.


I just wanted to say, because I was quoted, that Tolkien's themes were not the reason I am not a fan of his writing. I just wanted to separate from that if that was being construed. I am not a fan cause my time is valuable, and I feel he wastes it with too much extra info.

 

[Karlin]

I will just add, that writers 'sneaking' Christian themes into their books is not some nefarious plot. People write the world as they understand, and put in it the things they believe ...

This is true. Authors put a lot of themselves into books, just in the natural course of writing. There are " preachy" books, ones that are obviously pushing an agenda. Usually too obviously, in my opinion.

 

[Mad Swede]

How? Pullman's whole worldbuilding and motif is about critizing religious institutions.

No, it is nothing like that simple.

What Philip Pullman is ciritising is dogmatism, blind obedience to leaders (not just priests) and the use of religion or other beliefs for oppression. As Pullman himself has said, his books are about the "extreme danger of putting power into the hands of those who believe in some absolute creed, whether that is Christianity or Islam or Marxism." These are criticisms which he has in common with C S Lewis.

What Philip Pullman does promote in his books is the idea of love, that life is immensely valuable and that this world is an extraordinarily beautiful place. This is also something he has in common with both Lewis and Tolkien. In this context it's interesting to note that the poet John Betjeman, who was deeply religious and very conservative in his attitudes, detested C S Lewis.

Overall, Philip Pullman has far more in common with C S Lewis than might be expected. Both promote the idea of thinking for yourself, taking responsibilty for what you do and caring for your fellow beings.