"If you have to stop and google it, don't include it." ?

[Naruzeldamaster]

I was told this in a different writing forum way back when, and just recently thought about it.

I'm pretty sure the original question was about a passage where a character identified another by the fact that she had two different colored irises and used the scientific term for it and...not just saying that he noticed she had two different iris colors.

On paper, it was pretty in character for the character in question (He's very book ish and has a big vocab) that character has been revised three times since then and this is still true.

But on the other hand I thought of myself as the reader. I could see myself being 'taken out' of the story to google that.

Some readers don't mind that, others would, so particularly for medical terms I'm still like ? what do I do here?

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I was told this in a different writing forum way back when, and just recently thought about it.

I'm pretty sure the original question was about a passage where a character identified another by the fact that she had two different colored irises and used the scientific term for it and...not just saying that he noticed she had two different iris colors.

On paper, it was pretty in character for the character in question (He's very book ish and has a big vocab) that character has been revised three times since then and this is still true.

But on the other hand I thought of myself as the reader. I could see myself being 'taken out' of the story to google that.

Some readers don't mind that, others would, so particularly for medical terms I'm still like ? what do I do here?

Okay, no. I can respond to this with nothing but blunt truth. That was idiotic. Whoever said that and thought it was a great idea to spread around like y. pestis or xylitol in peanut butter- and we use medical terms. One of our FMC's is a trauma surgeon - should be stuffed into a copy of 1984 and made to think about their life choices.

It's reductive. It talks down to the reader and encourages laziness in the author. It looks at language only as it communicates information, and not as the whisper of poetry that makes us fall in love with people who don't actually exist or as the weapon we wield to shape the world.

What do we do? We do homework for a living. If we hit terms the reader needs to know, we help. Like this.

From Faerie Rising: The First Book of Binding...
~~~

“I feel… strange.” His lips tickled her skin.

“The extra power is making you light-headed. Push it into me, now, and I’ll guide you.” His hand pressed into her belly and Winter couldn’t catch the whimper of pain before it escaped. He tried to pull his hand back, but she held him in place. “Don’t. I don’t know how this will feel, but right now I’m in a lot of pain. You can’t let it stop you.” Besides, suddenly pulling away like that would only hurt her more, but he didn’t need to know right now.

Cian hesitated and then nodded. He let out a steadying breath and the flow of magic into her body increased.

Winter felt her spine begin to bow again and she fought to keep her breathing even. Here was hope. Given the destructive nature of the energy potion she wasn’t sure how much hope it was, but maybe he could buy her just a few more days, long enough to stand against Midir. To serve her city one last time. To attend her father’s funeral. That was all she needed.

But first she had to be Cian’s guide and teacher in this healing.

She shuddered under her body’s onslaught and cast herself again into the flow of his magic, following his magical senses into her own damaged body. It was a strange experience, visualizing inside herself like this, and seeing the systemic extent of the degeneration was shocking. And painful. What was it about looking at an injury that made it hurt more? For a moment she was overwhelmed, but she shook it off. She had seen, and successfully operated on, guts that had been shredded by bullets, blades, and claws. Bellies that had been torn open and things both tender and foul, organs not meant to be seen that were exposed to the air, which pulsed with life and recoiled from touch.

It had simply never been her before. She had worked while exhausted, while shaking from pain and effort, while frightened—even while weeping. But she had never been the one on the table. This was a different kind of agony.

“Let’s begin at the top of the abdominal cavity.” Winter slid Cian’s hand upward a few inches, bunching dress and sweater fabric over their joined wrists. “Here’s the stomach, with the esophagus feeding down into it.” Through his magic she could see the organ in its entirety, as clearly as if it were laid open to the light. Fascinating. “Do you see how the tissues are eaten away and bleeding? How it’s swollen and raw?” She stopped and thought back to what she had said. Would he understand everything she needed to tell him? She had to remember that Cian’s grasp of English wasn’t strong, and she had to keep her explanations simple—not an easy task for a physician in her element.

Cian nodded and turned his face downwards against her chest as if he was trying to see it more closely. Maybe he was. “Yes. I can feel it’s wrong. It’s pulling at me to make it right again.”

Interesting. She mentally shrugged. She really had no idea how magical healing was supposed to work, in practice. What did she have to lose by letting Cian’s instincts be their guide? She was dying. “Follow that pull. I’m right here with you and I won’t let you go too far.”

The swirl of magic converged on her stomach, and as she watched the flesh was rebuilt, the bleeding stopped, and the standing blood reabsorbed. The swelling subsided leaving behind a healthy organ. Winter realized that she had stopped breathing and inhaled. It was amazing! “Perfect. How do you feel?” She checked to make sure he was maintaining his connection to the flow of power from the earth.

“I feel good.”

“Then we can keep going. Don’t stop pulling energy from the earth. We still have a long way to go.” And with that she continued, guiding him organ by organ, structure by structure, through the intricacies of each system, performing repairs beyond her wildest dreams down to the daintiest of capillaries. She made him pause often, but he only forgot to maintain his power flow a couple of times and only showed minimal signs of tiring. The inflammation of her abdominal tissues caused by the degradation and internal bleeding dwindled to nothing as her body was restored, and the hurt faded away. Winter was limp with relief as Cian finished. “Thank you,” she whispered into his hair. She closed her eyes and reveled in breathing without pain.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Interesting, that does make me feel better about one of my characters then.

She's about 15 ish but has the personality (not the mind, just the personality traits) of like an 8 year old. BUT she has an extraordinary abundance of medical knowledge.(The admittedly hand wave-y excuse is that her parental guardian never let her read 'books' so she read medical books instead, many of them far more advanced too.) She even surprises my more book-ish character sometimes. Most adults aren't prepared for her to talk about jugulars in a medical way either, so when she does they're surprised.

Though that's kind of the gag of this whole group, not judging a book by it's cover. It certainly doesn't help that her manner of speaking is somewhat feral, not quite to the level of a cave man but pretty close. Also doesn't help that she speaks in and refers to herself entirely in third person. (which probably gives the impression she's more childlike naturally)

 

[skip.knox]

I have a decent vocabulary, but plenty of books send me scrambling, probably none more than T.H. White with The Once and Future King. It was a cornucopia of nouns. It is also one of my best beloved books.

 

[Mad Swede]

This is all about context. Context in terms of the setting, the characters and the story arc.

If it is appropriate for your characters to use deeply technical terms in that setting (eg in a story about hospitals and their staff) then the characters should use those terms. If there is a very obscure term in the text then you might want a charadter to look puzzled so that another character can explain it, as would happen in real life. John Grisham's stories do this very well, as do many SF authors. As an author you can assume that those who read stories like this either already have some knowledge or don't mind looking it up later.

What you can't do as an author is be unfair to the readers. So describing a temple building in a medieval style fantasy setting as a peripteral tholos isn't OK, you have do a bit more and have a character look at the temple with some care if you want to give a detailed description of the temple in question. However, if you have a ancient greek style setting then using a term like peripteral tholos is usually OK, because it is appropriate to the setting and hence the characters.

 

[FifthView]

If the question is broadly whether readers are likely to stumble over terminology, I would vote to always add sufficient context for a reader to come to some understanding of the terminology.

The understanding doesn't need to be exact. Most of the time, a general idea would do.

You won't always know how obscure the terminology will be for readers. You don't want to talk down to readers.... but go watch some of the videos on YouTube by PBS Space Time. I'm reasonably versed in many of the topics, but that professor can drone on and on with terminology that leaves me utterly baffled.

If the topic, event, or character development depends on a solid understanding of the terms being used, make those terms clear enough to have the effect you want on the reader.

All that said, sometimes mysteriousness and befuddlement are entirely the point, so you can leave those things less clear.

 

[Penpilot]

You can't account for every reader's vocabulary. If the word is appropriate for the character or setting, then IMHO, it would be a mistake to dumb it down so to speak.

One time in a writing class, someone critiqued one of my stories. And one of the comments was they didn't know what a helm was, as in someone was wearing a helm. This story was set in a fantasy setting. Now, I don't fault the person for having a hole in their vocabulary, but the reason I remember this till this day is because of the tone in which this was said to me. It was like how dare you use this stupid word which I don't understand.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

You can't account for every reader's vocabulary. If the word is appropriate for the character or setting, then IMHO, it would be a mistake to dumb it down so to speak.

That's the message I'm getting from ya'll here, provide the right context and just about any word is fine.

One time in a writing class, someone critiqued one of my stories. And one of the comments was they didn't know what a helm was, as in someone was wearing a helm. This story was set in a fantasy setting. Now, I don't fault the person for having a hole in their vocabulary, but the reason I remember this till this day is because of the tone in which this was said to me. It was like how dare you use this stupid word which I don't understand.

That was kind of my experience with the medical term for having two colored irises. (I know what it is I just can't spell it off the top of my head)
The commenter (Though only speaking through text) was like 'bro what is this?' even though if I recall correctly, the character identifying the female character as having two different colored irises. I asked them " ? Uh, what is problem ? " (Not literally but with the same energy) and they explained their logic. Something about it 'taking them out of the story' because they didn't understand the word. On one hand I get it, but on the other hand I'm like ? Something that small takes you out of the story?

Even at the time I was like 'someone's a 'smarty pants' ' to put it family friendly, but I was too young/inexperienced to critique/question said critique.

I had another poor experience with people reviewing my work ages ago (when I was like 13) but that's a different topic for another time.

 

[pmmg]

I am not sure who would give this advice, but...I dont think much of it.

I would change it to say, if you are finding that your writing time is all spent googling things, you need to write it ugly and go back and make it pretty later. Thats when google has its role.

Think i will give it to AeLowan. She said it the way I probably should have. (But I had to go google parts of her answer...)

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I am not sure who would give this advice, but...I dont think much of it.

I would change it to say, if you are finding that your writing time is all spent googling things, you need to write it ugly and go back and make it pretty later. Thats when google has its role.

Think i will give it to AeLowan. She said it the way I probably should have. (But I had to go google parts of her answer...)

I have to give it to her for making that excerpt ambiguously sexy lol
Not too far in one direction or the other, just it is what it is. (Might just be a me thing though, but to me it read somewhat 'sexy' lol)
Hopefully I can achieve that with my King Midas parody.
It's not really about the 'sexy' bits, but the chaos that causes it. (Though I am 100% 'writing that ugly' for the rough draft)

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Think i will give it to AeLowan. She said it the way I probably should have. (But I had to go google parts of her answer...)

I have to give it to her for making that excerpt ambiguously sexy lol
Not too far in one direction or the other, just it is what it is. (Might just be a me thing though, but to me it read somewhat 'sexy' lol)
Hopefully I can achieve that with my King Midas parody.
It's not really about the 'sexy' bits, but the chaos that causes it. (Though I am 100% 'writing that ugly' for the rough draft)

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Now I'm just showing off. Say "sexy" and I'm Beetleguese. lol This is the chunk leading up.

~~~

He approached her, worry plain on his beautiful face. “I… I don’t know what to say. How to say it. I want to help.”

Winter turned away. “No one can help,” she whispered. “It’s already over.” She clapped her hand over her mouth and fought down the burn in her throat, the rising tears.

“I think… I want to help.”

Winter could hear his frustration as he struggled to express himself in English, but right now she just did not have the room in her psyche for both patience and despair. “Go inside, Cian.”

There was silence behind her for a moment. And then, “No.” His voice was firm, determined, and then his hands were on her shoulders.

She twisted, startled. He was tall, taller than her. She was so used to Etienne calling him a boy that she had thought of him as a child, but he really wasn’t. He was a man, simply a young one. She tried to pull herself away from his hands.

Cian shook his head. He pulled her gently against his chest and wrapped his arms around her.

“No… please, no…” But it was too late. His tenderness was her undoing. The burning tightness travelled up her throat, rushed into her mouth, and burst from her lips in a choked cry. Her knees buckled with the force of her sorrow and Cian followed her down, folding his body around hers as sob after racking sob tore through her, the despair of twenty years clawing its way free to howl into the morning air. This was no gentle mourning. She screamed her wordless grief for her family. For her father. For herself.

Cian held her against his body and rocked with her, his cheek against her hair, his thumb moving in slow circles over her arm.

Winter had no idea how much time passed as she cried, as he held her. An hour? An eternity? At last it ended, at least for now, and she hung limp in his embrace, her cheeks burned by wind and the salt of her own tears. Her hair had fallen from its bun at some point and long coils of it danced about the two of them, threatening to bind them together in tangles. She closed her eyes, and as she did she felt a sharp pain in her belly. She swallowed. She had been out here for longer than she thought. The painkiller was wearing off.

Cian lifted his cheek from her hair and a moment later he slipped one arm behind her knees and picked her up off the ground. She gasped, but it was from surprise. His movement was smooth, effortless, and did not jar her belly. He carried her into the gazebo out of the wind and sat in one of the corners, a foot propped on the bench, with her tucked in between his long legs.

Winter felt him wrap his arms around her again and was conflicted. On one hand, this should be awkward. Cian was younger than her. Exactly how much she wasn’t sure, but somewhere around Brian’s age she guessed, maybe a little older. And she didn’t know him well. But on the other hand, as he tightened his embrace and she settled her head against his shoulder, she was so tired, and this was so comforting. And she had needed comfort for so long. His hand came up and stroked her tangled hair. His breath sounds rushed past her ear. She let her eyes close.

The pain stabbed through her belly and a whimper escaped. She shifted positions to try to escape it, but it found her a moment later.

“You’re hurting.” Cian’s soft voice resonated under her ear. It wasn’t a question.

She nodded, her cheek still pressed against him. “I’m dying.”

He stilled under her for a moment. “Why?”

How to answer that? “For a long time, I’ve been in a position where I’ve had to do the work of many wizards, all by myself. I made a series of choices—maybe they were mistakes, it’s too late now to really know—where I had to choose between my health and my responsibilities. My health lost. When I started I thought, ‘I’ll just do it today. It’s safe every once in a while.’ And then when I was using them more often it became, ‘I know what I’m doing. I’ll just use them for a while, just while I need to, and it will be safe.’” She sighed. “I stopped telling myself that weeks ago. I knew the energy potions were addictive and I knew that with extended use they cause organ degeneration and death…” She stopped. “I’m sorry. If I’m using words you don’t know just stop me.”

Cian had returned to stroking her hair. “I don’t mind. I can figure it out from the other things you’re saying.” He was quiet for a moment. “Are you scared?”

Winter nodded. “Very.”

His fingers caught in a tangle and he paused to tease it out.

If it wasn’t for the increasing pain in her belly she could have stayed here forever. She wanted to fall asleep with him, just like this. She needed to go inside and take more of the painkilling potion, but that would mean bringing this moment of being comforted to an end. So instead she kept talking. “I’m afraid of the pain. That’s a downside of being a physician, because my training and experience tell me that there is going to be a time, very soon, where the pain will become too extreme to control. And I’ll have to choose…” She stopped again. Her choice was irrelevant. One would spare her from pain, the other would give her friends a few more hours to say goodbye. She would have to have this talk with Erik, later, but he would yell. Katherine would yell and cry. So would Corinne. She had worked so hard to be what they all needed, and she had failed them, anyway.

“What I fear the most is what will happen to the people I love after I’m gone.” Pain lanced through her belly and between her shoulder blades. She turned her face further into the warmth of Cian’s shirt as she struggled to breathe through it. If the pain was shifting to her shoulders how much blood was she holding in her abdomen, now? “I did this to myself because this city is on the verge of tearing itself apart.” She spoke in a whisper, but she knew he would hear her. “My family used to be the ones who kept the peace, but now we’re gone. Even without Midir’s plans, the preternatural groups will war for dominance. The balance will be broken, and Seahaven will fall into chaos.” And with Midir’s plans, thousands would die and there was nothing she could do to save them. Not like this. “I just wish—”

Cian shifted his position and sat her upright against his bent leg. His hands went to the buttons of her coat and he started unfastening them.

The air was cool on her cheek, away from his shoulder, and Winter looked up at him. “What are you doing?” Her limbs felt heavy, and she noticed in some part of her mind that she was only vaguely curious about what Cian was doing. She felt floaty and numb, and wanted to return to being cuddled and comforted. She thought she might be in shock.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

...

Cian finished unbuttoning her coat and spread it open. “I’m not sure. But I can feel that you hurt.” He gave a small, frustrated frown and met her eyes. Tucked against him like this he was very close. “I don’t know how to say it right. Can I show you?”

Dazed, Winter nodded.

He reached into her coat and slid his hand up under her sweater to lay it with splayed fingers over her stomach. He was very gentle, so he caused her no additional pain. His eyes closed, and his red-gold brows knitted together in concentration.

His hair tickled against her nose. He smelled like the store shampoo, like Etienne… but also different. Spicy. Still good, though. Still male. What was he doing? She sat there for several long moments feeling the warmth of his palm on her skin through the fabric of her dress. His fingers were long, and his hand seemed to stretch over the whole of her abdomen. It was a new experience for her, and it wasn’t unpleasant. She parted her lips to ask, and then gasped as sidhe magic began to flow from his hand into her body. Her eyes widened. It felt like warm water rushing into her belly, twisting around the pain and filling her up. Her spine bowed back over his knee with the strange mix of pleasure and agony, and she flailed with one arm, wrapping it around Cian’s shoulders and digging her fingers into his shirt. She grasped at his wrist with her other hand, but she didn’t try to pry him off of her.

She thought she knew what he was trying to do. The day she had met him and Etienne, Jessie had wrenched her shoulder trying to pick up that backpack. Winter had watched Cian heal the injury. It had been messy, but effective. Jessie had been too distracted by her pain to notice the magic, something Winter still needed to speak to the girl about. But what Cian had done with Jessie was a light touch compared to what he was attempting now.

His magic was still messy, but he had access to so much power! Winter had read about those who could heal by touch but had never met one. He had the ability and the desire, but she realized, as his magic moved through her damaged and failing body, that instinct alone wouldn’t be enough for a healing this extensive. He needed guidance.

She slid her hand down over the back of his larger one. Her breathing had become labored, forcing spikes of agony through her belly again and again, and she struggled to find her voice. “Relax.” She brought her other hand up from his shoulder to the back of his neck and slipped her fingers into his silky hair. “You’re using too much energy. At this rate you’ll use it all up before you’re done.” She swallowed hard past the pain and felt the flood of power begin to ebb. Her body relaxed. “Good. Good. Now, reach down with your magic into the earth. Can you feel the energy there?” He stretched out a tendril of power and using the magic from her own sidhe heritage she followed with him to make sure he went far enough. He did, and she felt him nod against her neck and shoulder. “Pull it into you. Slowly. Like you’re drinking from a stream.” She rested her cheek against his fragrant hair and closed her eyes, the better to focus. If he drew power too slowly he would deplete and fail, but if he did it too fast he could hurt himself. It was even possible to die from too much power. But Cian apparently had excellent instincts. “Very good. A little more… yes. Just like that. You need to maintain the flow while you work and use it to fuel your magic.”

 

[Prince of Spires]

There are 2 ways of looking at this statement (and I disagree with both...).

From a writer's perspective this makes no sense. You can't know everything as a writer and these words and phrases actually add a lot of depth and character to a story. If you have a character who would likely know the scientific term for a person with 2 different colored irises, then you have to use it to stay true to the character. Which means you end up on google a lot for these kinds of details and everything else you can think of.

From a reader's perspective it makes a little more sense, but not a lot. Of course, you can't know your reader's vocabulary. However, that doesn't mean you should dumb down your book, you should just make it clear what's being talked about from the context. If anything, this is the main way mankind has been learning language for the past 50.000 or so years. Just pick a baby. They all learn language by association and build their vocabulary the same way.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

There are 2 ways of looking at this statement (and I disagree with both...).

From a writer's perspective this makes no sense. You can't know everything as a writer and these words and phrases actually add a lot of depth and character to a story. If you have a character who would likely know the scientific term for a person with 2 different colored irises, then you have to use it to stay true to the character. Which means you end up on google a lot for these kinds of details and everything else you can think of.

From a reader's perspective it makes a little more sense, but not a lot. Of course, you can't know your reader's vocabulary. However, that doesn't mean you should dumb down your book, you should just make it clear what's being talked about from the context. If anything, this is the main way mankind has been learning language for the past 50.000 or so years. Just pick a baby. They all learn language by association and build their vocabulary the same way.

Hmm yeah, I can see both, maybe that's what I felt at the time but couldn't find the words.
Even at the time, neither of these made sense to me. Especially for the character in question.
He identified the lady as having two colored irises the first time he saw her (One of the things that stuck out to him) and then he says 'you know some people find [medical term] kind of hot' he does it half jokingly, because he realizes after he says it that he's drawn to her because of it. She almost doubles over laughing (She doesn't cause she's a mute, but it's clear that she's struggling not to laugh)

 

[The Dark One]

Never forget that it is part of a writer's duty (I believe) to be educative.

Where else do we learn new words but in books.

Unless it's totally out of character/context revel in your sesquipedalian prolixity.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Never forget that it is part of a writer's duty (I believe) to be educative.

Where else do we learn new words but in books.

Unless it's totally out of character/context revel in your sesquipedalian prolixity.

Indeed. But why stop there? When existing language fails to provide, I say look further afield. "Dudetastically," "Scruffed." I have a good time seeing how stretchy English has become. And... looking over the corpse of his aunt like he didn't just have her brought to him trussed up like a bird for the table. We can have a lot of fun with these. :0

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Never forget that it is part of a writer's duty (I believe) to be educative.

Where else do we learn new words but in books.

Unless it's totally out of character/context revel in your sesquipedalian prolixity.

Hmm, I'll say it's out of character for these kinds of terms to be used in canon, but it's an earth-adjacent world, so they probably exist. And two of my characters are very knowledgeable about these terms. One of them is less likely to use them in day to day conversation (But she has the knowledge) and the other is absolutely giving context to the reader before he uses the phrase outloud. He's not just randomly throwing it out there as a pick up line. (he's too socially stilted/awkward to try that)

If the reader doesn't understand that said medical term is referring to her irises I'm like ? what can I do at that point.

 

[JBCrowson]

Indeed. But why stop there? When existing language fails to provide, I say look further afield. "Dudetastically," "Scruffed." I have a good time seeing how stretchy English has become. And... looking over the corpse of his aunt like he didn't just have her brought to him trussed up like a bird for the table. We can have a lot of fun with these. :0

Dickens and Shakespeare were both fond of inventing new words, to the extent I wonder if the colloquialism "what the Dickens..." reflects how often he threw new words at his readers.

 

[Lynea]

The more we know, the more we can know