Why use D&D races in our stories?

[Devor]

My contention is that there are some types of fantasy you almost cannot do without drawing upon the conventional tropes because there's only so much completely new material you can introduce and still keep readers engaged. And I don't think there's enough widely accepted racial tropes out there without Tolkein. Monsters, sure, but not races.

Since Blizzard's come up, Warcraft in many ways has a phenomenal story. Imagine telling it without using orcs, trolls, elves, dwarfed, gnomes . . . I really don't believe it can be done with the same sort of buy-in from an audience. I think too much of it would be too strange.

 

[Zero Angel]

Since Blizzard's come up, Warcraft in many ways has a phenomenal story. Imagine telling it without using orcs, trolls, elves, dwarfed, gnomes . . . I really don't believe it can be done with the same sort of buy-in from an audience. I think too much of it would be too strange.

I completely agree. I have dozens of new races in my multiverse, but I always ground my main series entries with the conventional races while introducing newer ones as they fit into the story.

 

[Feo Takahari]

Hmm . . . Can anyone think of a series that focuses heavily on many unconventional races? (The only ones that I can think of are Stardoc and Schlock Mercenary.)

 

[Steerpike]

Steven Erikson and Ian Esslemont's Malazan books.

 

[Ankari]

Steven Erikson and Ian Esslemont's Malazan books.

I'm not sure that is the case. Both of them seem to leave the identity of their (main) races ambiguous.

Tiste: Elves

Trell (Mappo): Ogre. Steven Erickson actually uses that word.

Toblakai: Giants

Various shades of humans

The unique races would be the Jaghut, the Forkrul Assail and the Imass (even though that is questionable. They resemble neanderthals by his description)

 

[Steerpike]

I'm not sure that is the case. Both of them seem to leave the identity of their (main) races ambiguous.

Tiste: Elves

Trell (Mappo): Ogre. Steven Erickson actually uses that word.

Toblakai: Giants

Various shades of humans

The unique races would be the Jaghut, the Forkrul Assail and the Imass (even though that is questionable. They resemble neanderthals by his description)

It is true that not all of them are unique, but I think he does have a number of unconventional ones. The Tiste races are elf-like, but I don't think they're carbon copies of the traditional elf. As you note, the Jaghut and Forkrul Assail are unique. I think the Imass are fairly unique for a fantasy novel, though I agree that they seem like Neandertals. Also, there are the K'Chain Che'Malle.

 

[shangrila]

Jaghut seem to be orc/troll based. The Imass are more or less zombies; not exactly unique. And Lizardmen like the K'Chain have been done plenty of other times.

I really enjoyed the Malazan series, but his races weren't all that unique once he actually described them. The only one that was, IMO, was the Assail (obviously). But they did a hell of a job with them, so it kind of makes up for the rest.

 

[Steerpike]

The T'lan Imass aren't anything like zombies, in my view. Also the K'Chain Che'Malle may be reptilian, but I don't think they are much like portrayals of lizard men I've seen elsewhere.

To me, it doesn't make sense to simply look at physical characteristics. Otherwise, one could simply say no humanoid race is unique or unconventional. I think what Erikson and Esslemont have done is to establish some fairly unconventional races and have them play a large role in the world. Even the Teblor subgroup of the Toblakai are fairly unique in terms of how they are presented. You can't just say "Oh, they're tall and they have two arms and two legs, and that's been done," in my view. The details are where the races are going to be alike or different.

 

[Ankari]

The Imass pre-ritual were alive. They resemble neanderthal. After ritual they change to T'ann Imass or something like that

 

[Steerpike]

The Imass pre-ritual were alive. They resemble neanderthal. After ritual they change to T'ann Imass or something like that

They don't behave like zombies, however. They are undead, but they're not mindless.

 

[Steerpike]

As another example, suppose you come up with a cat race. OK, read The Pride of Chanur, or any of the Kzin books. But are your cats anything like those cats? If not, they can still be unique notwithstanding the fact that someone else has made a cat-like race.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I haven't read the Malazan series, but it may be that Erikson utilized the Five Races or a similar framework. Like I said in the other thread, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with this, though I'd prefer a little tinkering with the formula rather than just giving the reader straight-up orcs and elves.

 

[Steerpike]

I haven't read the Malazan series, but it may be that Erikson utilized the Five Races or a similar framework. Like I said in the other thread, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with this, though I'd prefer a little tinkering with the formula rather than just giving the reader straight-up orcs and elves.

He doesn't use the Five Races. There are humans of various kinds, of course, and the Tiste races (Tiste Andii, Tiste Edur, etc.) are elf-like, but other than that the races are the ones we've been discussing above. I think the problem with the Five Races is that people tend to use them as limiting. There is nothing wrong with having the characteristics outlined there, but if your race has depth then you aren't really limiting yourself by operating within the Five Races confine.

 

[Zero Angel]

I agree with Steerpike here in that if your race is unique and has its own characteristics, go ahead and define it as being different.

Please make a website though that at least nods to the influences (if you were influenced by them). One of the things I hate about the Wheel of Time is figuring out all of the apostrophe'd creatures and what they were really supposed to be.

I guess this is because I feel that he didn't describe them well enough for me to understand what he was talking about.

(I love WoT and Robert Jordan though, so please don't take my nit-picking for despoiling one of your gods).

 

[Steerpike]

Zero Angel - not to derail too much, but have you read any of the WoT books by Sanderson? I sort of stopped right before that and thought of picking them up again.

 

[shangrila]

It doesn't matter that they're not mindless. They're rotting corpses that move. I'll give those guys credit for putting a unique twist on them, but it isn't like they broke the mold ala the Assail. This is all I'm really saying; they didn't do anything super special, not that they didn't have an interesting group of races.

 

[Wynnara]

I haven't read this full thread, but I find myself leaning toward the idea of giving the reader a place to start and then refining from there.

I have elves in my novel that have elfish qualities and part the reason I included them as one of my races is because I wanted to say "yes, this is a fantasy world that has magic in it" etc. etc... particularly since magic is an element that isn't immediately obvious to the reader. I wanted to be able to say "elf" and for people to picture something non-human and magical in their mind. I would then go in and refine that image by saying the elves in my world have physical qualities of X, Y and Z.

I had a similar problem when I decided to include dire wolves in my novel. I am perhaps not as well-read as many of the fantasy authors here, so I was unaware of their usage by George R.R. Martin--and I imagine others as well. I actually came across them on wikipedia when I discovered them as a large prehistoric wolf. I ultimately decided to keep them in for the same reason as the elves. While I could come up with a wacky name for them, what I really wanted to get across as quickly as possible was really big wolf and then again, just painting in the specific details of my version.

 

[Zero Angel]

Zero Angel - not to derail too much, but have you read any of the WoT books by Sanderson? I sort of stopped right before that and thought of picking them up again.

Yes. I've read the first two and the third is coming out next year I believe. They are beyond worth it. If you are paying close attention, you can tell the difference between the two, but I think he does a great job of imitating Robert Jordan's style. Also, since he is trying to close out the series as fast as possible (although doing so by turning one book into a 900K word trilogy) you get so much of the satisfaction that you have been denied for several of the middle books.

It was getting to the point in the series where I would read entire books and feel like nothing happened. I think Knife of Dreams picked up the pace considerably (the last by Jordan) and is my favorite of his last several books, but Sanderson increases the pace even more and is constantly rewarding the reader.

As an aside, I really get frustrated with the male-female relationships in this book because it is an example of "We could figure it out if we would just talk to each other but I know better than they do" which is soooo frustrating to me when it shows up in books and movies.

I haven't read this full thread, but I find myself leaning toward the idea of giving the reader a place to start and then refining from there.

I have elves in my novel that have elfish qualities and part the reason I included them as one of my races is because I wanted to say "yes, this is a fantasy world that has magic in it" etc. etc... particularly since magic is an element that isn't immediately obvious to the reader. I wanted to be able to say "elf" and for people to picture something non-human and magical in their mind. I would then go in and refine that image by saying the elves in my world have physical qualities of X, Y and Z.

I pretty much agree with you on all counts here. I believe this is the primary positive to use most of the stock races. The reader immediately has a starting point and is not wholly reliant on you for the description. Of course, this could just be me being lazy and not wanting to fully describe everything, but I'd like to think that it was for the reader's benefit...

I had a similar problem when I decided to include dire wolves in my novel. I am perhaps not as well-read as many of the fantasy authors here, so I was unaware of their usage by George R.R. Martin--and I imagine others as well. I actually came across them on wikipedia when I discovered them as a large prehistoric wolf. I ultimately decided to keep them in for the same reason as the elves. While I could come up with a wacky name for them, what I really wanted to get across as quickly as possible was really big wolf and then again, just painting in the specific details of my version.

I am surprised this was your first encounter with them, but I have been playing D&D for a while. In D&D, dire anything is a large, usually more aggressive version of an animal. Still, if people accuse you of ripping off Martin with dire wolves, then you can accuse them of being wayyy late to the game.

 

[Wynnara]

I am surprised this was your first encounter with them, but I have been playing D&D for a while. In D&D, dire anything is a large, usually more aggressive version of an animal. Still, if people accuse you of ripping off Martin with dire wolves, then you can accuse them of being wayyy late to the game.

Hehe, well my strongest memory of D&D is being in Gr. 6 or so and the boys in the class not letting me play... mostly I suspect because I'm a girl.

 

[Zero Angel]

Hehe, well my strongest memory of D&D is being in Gr. 6 or so and the boys in the class not letting me play... mostly I suspect because I'm a girl.

Wow. I always thought guys wanted girls to enjoy their dorkiness....maybe that's a development that came about in high school though.